ZLUDA VS bevy

It now supports AMD GPUs since 3 weeks ago, check the latest commit at the repo:

https://github.com/vosen/ZLUDA

The article also mentions exactly this fact.

Looks like nvidia is trying to keep the lynchpin of their entire business model from crumbling underneath them. ZLUDA lets you run unmodified CUDA applications with near-native performance on AMD GPUs.

https://github.com/vosen/ZLUDA

With Triton looking to eclipse CUDA entirely, im not sure this prohibition does anything more than placate casual shareholders.

>Dark API functions are reverse-engineered and implemented by ZLUDA on a case-by-case basis once we observe an application making use of it.

https://github.com/vosen/ZLUDA/blob/master/ARCHITECTURE.md

> I know AMD have their competition, but their GPU software division keeps tripping over itself.

They are actively stepping on every rake there is. Eg they just stopped supporting the drop-in-cuda project everyone is waiting for, due to there being "no business-case for CUDA on AMD GPUs" [0].

[0] https://github.com/vosen/ZLUDA?tab=readme-ov-file#faq

https://github.com/vosen/ZLUDA

They still funded it and it was created.

From the same repo, I found this excellent, well-written architecture document: https://github.com/vosen/ZLUDA/blob/master/ARCHITECTURE.md

I love the direct, "no bullshit" style of writing.

Some gems:

> Anyone familiar with C++ will instantly understand that compiling it is a complicated affair.

> Additionally CUDA allows, to a large degree, mixing CPU code and GPU code. What does all this complexity mean for ZLUDA? Absolutely nothing

> Since an application can dynamically link to either Driver API or Runtime API, it would seem that ZLUDA needs to provide both. In reality very few applications dynamically link to Runtime API. For the vast majority of applications it's sufficient to provide Driver API for dynamic (runtime) linking.

CUDA is huge and nvidia spent a ton in a lot of "dead end" use cases optimizing it. There have been experiments with CUDA translation layers with decent performance[1]. There are two things that most projects hit:

1. The CUDA API is huge; I'm sure Intel/AMD will focus on what they need to implement pytorch and ignore every other use case ensuring that CUDA always has the leg up in any new frontier

2. Nvidia actually cares about developer experience. The most prominent example is Geohotz with tinygrad - where AMD examples didn't even work or had glaring compiler bugs. You will find nvidia engineer in github issues for CUDA projects. Intel/AMD hasn't made that level of investment and thats important because GPUs tend to be more fickle than CPUs.

[1] https://github.com/vosen/ZLUDA

> I don't think you understand just how insanely difficult it is to break into that market.

You're right, I have no clue nor have I ever tried myself.

> Even with apple money or something like that, it's a losing prospect because in the time it'll take you to get up and off the ground (which is FOREVER) your competition will crush you.

This I find hard to believe, do you have a source or reference for that claim? Companies with that amount of cash are hardly going to be crushed by competition be it direct or indirect. Anyway, I'm talking more about the Intels and AMDs of this world.

We have very lacklustre efforts from players I won't name with their Zluda library (https://github.com/vosen/ZLUDA) which I got REALLY excited about, until I read the README.txt. Four contributors, last commit early 2021.

Why, oh why, is it this bad?

Bevy. A very young engine where you need to write the game entirely in Rust—that was appealing. But fatal flaws overshadowed everything: no editor, the engine brutally enforces the ECS approach, and the game's architecture must literally bend to fit this paradigm. So, you won't migrate to another engine at all—you just throw away all the code and start from scratch.

Missing one of the best choices as long as "maturity" isn't on the top of your list: Bevy - https://bevyengine.org/

Game engine written in Rust, leveraging ECS in almost every place and way, with a really capable WASM export option. Wrestling ECS for the first time might take you some time, but in my experience helps you keep game code as clean and decoupled as game code could be.

I don't see WASM/WebGPU changing anything when it comes to gaming, as an industry, personally. 3d visualizations and interactive websites? Yeah definitely a nice improvement over WebGL 2, if years late.

WebGPU is pretty far behind what AAA games are using even as of 6 years ago. There's extra overhead and security in the WebGPU spec that AAA games do not want. Browsers do not lend themselves to downloading 300gb of assets.

Additionally, indie devs aren't using Steam for the technical capabilities. It's purely about marketshare. Video games are a highly saturated market. The users are all on Steam, getting their recommendations from Steam, and buying games in Steam sales. Hence all the indie developers publish to Steam. I don't see a web browser being appealing as a platform, because there's no way for developers to advertise to users.

That's also only indie games. AAA games use their own launchers, because they don't _need_ the discoverability from being on Steam. So they don't, and avoid the fees. If anything users _want_ the Steam monopoly, because they like the platform, and hate the walled garden launchers from AAA companies.

(I work on high end rendering features for the Bevy game engine https://bevyengine.org, and have extensive experience with WebGPU)

I was working through an example in the repo for the Bevy game engine recently and came across this code

That's possible. I did spend quite a bit of time tinkering with compiler flags, and followed the recommendations.

Some notes I found just now seems to agree with my results, though: https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy/issues/3978#issuecomment-...

I cannot recommend immediate mode GUI programming based on the limitations I've experienced working with egui.

egui does not support putting two widgets in the center of the screen: https://github.com/emilk/egui/issues/3211

It's really easy to get started with immediate mode, it's really easy to bust out some UI, but the second you start trying to involve dynamically resized context and responsive layouts -- abandon all hope. The fact it has to calculate everything in a single pass makes these things hard/impossible.

... that said, I'm still using it for https://ant.care/ (https://github.com/MeoMix/symbiants) because it's the best thing I've found. I'm crossing my fingers that Bevy's UI story (or Kayak https://github.com/StarArawn/kayak_ui) become significantly more fleshed out sooner rather than later. Bevy 0.13 should have lots more in this area though (https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy/discussions/9538)

I've also been enjoying building My First Game™ in Bevy using ECS. The community around Bevy really shines, but Flecs (https://github.com/SanderMertens/flecs) is arguably a more mature, open-source ECS implementation. You don't get to write in Rust, though, which makes it less cool in my book :)

I'm not very proud of the code I've written because I've found writing a game to be much more confusing than building websites + backends, but, as the author notes, it certainly feels more elegant than OOP or globals given the context.

I'm building for WASM and Bevy's parallelism isn't supported in that context (yet? https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy/issues/4078), so the performance wins are just so-so. Sharing a thread with UI rendering suuucks.

If anyone wants to browse some code or ask questions, feel free! https://github.com/MeoMix/symbiants

These days, some game engines have done pretty well at making compute shaders easy to use (such as Bevy [1] -- disclaimer, I contribute to that engine). But telling the scientific/financial/etc. community that they need to run their code inside a game engine to get a decent experience is a hard sell. It's not a great situation compared to how easy it is on NVIDIA's stack.

[1]: https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy/blob/main/examples/shader...

This is the API you need: https://github.com/bevyengine/bevy/pull/9774