jsonnet VS lowdefy

jsonnet[1] and kapitan[2] are the tools I currently use. Their learning curve is not optimal (and I tried to contribute to smoothen it with a jsonnet course[3] and a 'get started wit kapitan' blog post[4]), but once used to it it's hard to do without, and their combination makes them even more useful (esp. if you deploy K8s).

In Ruud's case, Jsonnet might have been worth looking at as Hashicorp tools can be configured with json in addition to HCL. But that would have been less fun I guess ;-)

I hope for Ruud it finds its niche, there's quite some competition in this field!

1: https://jsonnet.org/

Kubernetes config is a decent example. I had ChatGPT generate a representative silly example -- the content doesn't matter so much as the structure:

https://gist.github.com/cstrahan/528b00cd5c3a22e3d8f057bb1a7...

Now consider 100s (if not 1000s) of such files.

I haven't given Pkl an in depth look yet, but I can say that the Industry Standard™ of "simple YAML" + string substitution (with delicate, error prone indentation -- since YAML is indentation sensitive) is easily beat by any of:

- https://jsonnet.org/

- https://nickel-lang.org/

- https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/language/index.html

- https://dhall-lang.org/

- (insert many more here, probably including Pkl)

jsonnet cli: link

Jsonnet: A data template language implemented in C++, suitable for application and tool developers, can generate configuration data and organize, simplify and manage large configurations without side effects.

[Language: Jsonnet] (on GitHub)

Maybe you'd like jsonnet: https://jsonnet.org/

I find it particularly useful for configurations that often have repeated boilerplate, like ansible playbooks or deploying a bunch of "similar-but" services to kubernetes (with https://tanka.dev).

Dhall is also quite interesting, with some tradeoffs: https://dhall-lang.org/

A few years ago I did a small comparison by re-implementing one of my simpler ansible playbooks: https://github.com/retzkek/ansible-dhall-jsonnet

Apologies for the lack of context, and for missing this comment until today.

Both are tools for defining kubernetes manifests (which are YAML) in a reusable manner.

Jsonnet is a formally specified extension of JSON. It’s essentially a functional programming language (w/some object oriented features) that generates config files in JSON/YAML/etc, so it’s straightforward to determine whether an input file is valid, and to throw an error that points to an exact line if it’s not. It has a high learning curve, especially for people whose only experience is with imperative languages.

https://jsonnet.org/

Helm charts also generate YAML/JSON config files, but they use Go templating. This is easier and faster to understand, since it’s mostly string substitution and not much logic (there’s conditionals, iterators, and very basic helper functions). Unfortunately a simple typo or mistake can cause errors that are difficult to diagnose (the message may indicate a problem far away in code from the actual mistake). It can also generate output that’s valid according to the string templating rules, but not what was intended, which can be very confusing to debug.

Despite these shortcomings, the vast majority of kubernetes applications are distributed as helm charts. I understand why things ended up this way, but I still wish it were more common for people to invest the upfront effort to learn the superior tool, so it could be more widespread.

I like Google's Jsonnet [1], which has all of this except for 4.

Jsonnet is quite mature, with fairly wide language adoption, and has the benefit of supporting expressions, including conditionals, arithmetic, as well as being able to define reusable blocks inside function definitions or external files.

It's not suitable as a serialization format, but great for config. It's popular in some circles, but I'm sad that it has not reached wider adoption.

[1] https://jsonnet.org/

I'm really enjoying reading through the docs and the tutorial. We've created Lowdefy, a config web-stack which makes it really simple to build quite advanced web apps. We're writing everything in YAML, but it has it's limitations, specifically when doing config type checking and IDE extensions that go beyond just YAML.

I've been looking for a way to have typed objects in the config to do config suggestions and type checking.. PKL looks like it can do this for us. And with the JSON output we might even be able to get there with minimal effort.

Is there anyone here with some PKL experience that would be willing to answer some technical questions re the use of PKL for more advanced, nested config?

See Lowdefy:

https://lowdefy.com/

https://github.com/lowdefy/lowdefy

Awsome! With Lowdefy we tried to build a low-code framework that works like code. We’ve developed a schema in which to define applications and we’ve built all kinds of apps for enterprise customers. Massive, advanced CRM systems, call centre solutions, ticketing systems, a light MRP, all kinds of survey apps and so many dashboards. Even our docs and our website are Lowdefy apps!

Give Lowdefy a try and reach out it you have any questions or want to see what is possible :) (We need to invest a lot more into content and examples, bootstapping is a grind!)

https://github.com/lowdefy/lowdefy

Also add Lowdefy onto the list https://github.com/lowdefy/lowdefy

co-founder here :)

100% this. And yes, good documentation takes a lot of investment but it pays off like compound interest. But with that done, it becomes even more important not to pull the carpet for no good reason, you are building a tower and documentation is at the foundation.

We’ve built Lowdefy [1] as an open source project and documented it with all effort, 200 pages of docs. I often forget why or how something works and then jump to the docs. This investment keeps on paying of as we use Lowdefy to build customer apps, new devs in the team typically take less than two week to get up to speed and start making contributions, the sharp ones, just a two or three days.

This year, we’re extended our documentation onto customer apps aswell, with flow diagrams, state machine definitions, detailed field level explication schema definitions, and end user test procedures. The key here for this documentation is detail. It should be easier to reach for the docs and the the answer, than to dive in the code and interpret it.

1 - https://github.com/lowdefy/lowdefy

https://github.com/lowdefy/lowdefy Co-Founder here.

Check out https://lowdefy.com/ they even have a sample survey app as one of their examples.

You can build an app that would do this

Lowdefy is a low code tool that uses AG Grid as a block component, allowing you to create apps which render data in AG Grid without a lot of coding knowledge. There is a Lowdefy example using AG Grid here.

Shameless plug, also check out Lowdefy - https://github.com/lowdefy/lowdefy

I’m also going to jump in here and say try Lowdefy https://github.com/lowdefy/lowdefy - co-founder here.

We take a different angle and believe that low code should still work like code. We focus on a developer first approach.