webpackage VS turtledove

Good stuff. Still, drives me a bit nuts that we package/HTTP Signed Exchanges, Message Signatures, and web archiving all have very similar but different versions of the same thing.

Webpackage has a lot of stuff that seems super cool to me. Alas it seemed mainly to be a small handful of engineers & most seemed to have moved on from the effort. https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/issues/713

Given the frosty response in the comments they got I guess I'm not shocked, but in general it feels like web standards could use better long term care, that they often don't get, alas.

Some of the navigating into a bundle stuff is indeed not presently happening.

But there's a bunch of specs for signed exchanges & subresources that underpin & allow resource exchange, and which do have recent drafts. Webpackage seems to be doing OK ish. But yeah we bundles specifically do seem to be all expired.

https://github.com/WICG/webpackage#specifications

Cool idea, but what I'm really hoping is that webpackage gets properly developed and integrated with browsers eventually. Unfortunately it probably won't happen, a tiny chunk of Google showed interest but that's about it.

With certificate transparency, I dont think SXG's expiration s a real barrier to adoption. The hardnosed shitty browser attitude aroumd right now: it will collapse in the face of onvious utility, other people will implememt more aspirational & liberal systems. This stance is untennable im the face of the obvious huge value of being able to lool at old signed content, particularly when coupled with certificate transparency systems. This conservative standard will is just a minimal & onvious agreeable starting place, but adoption will give way to expansion, given the immense user value of signed content. I say this as a core core protester against these pathetic loserly expiration timeouts[1].

I get maybe not putting all your chips in SXG basket. I disagree with a bunch of the protest: this seems like a sensible, basic, obvious layered enhancement to the existimg web. Safari & Mozia are as is the modd today being terrible shits as usual, the regressives.

Contrasting ADX versus SXG just feels so wild, because SXG is a small refinememt to a vast world spanning & complete ecosystem of technology that has already taken over the planet. And ADX is an standalone completely isolated alternate world, it's own reality. This tension, whether we need a baseline which is 100% new & novel & redefines the entire problem space on it's own terms, completely from scratch, or whether we can hack & improve & enhance what we have: I dont feel like there's any camp at all left to defend improvememt.

Tear it all down, start over... it's the mode. I agree, this debate needs more than HM comments. But this tension & conflict, this view of the world & how it evolves or revolts: it's been trying to make revutions & insist no bounds, nothing today can possibly be good enough for tomorrow. And two plus decades latter, it's made such tiny impact, is so niche.

I accept your snub, getting told im exasperated, but it's for a real reason, it's because these decades have failed to deliver & so few have willingly tried improving what is (Safari & Mozia being a quite vocal modern anchor keeling things in place, a modern astrpturfing shouting class against trying anything, especially). This effort does have the social capital to perhaps emerge & birth something new, but we could also just improve & greatly fix everything that ready is. With minor, layered, small, principled enhancements.

[1] https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/issues/597

signed web bundles [1] let you package up a page as a fixed resource, distributed with a signature to verify that the content of that page is what the author intended it to be, so a site like twitter that is embedding it can be sure that what they're embedding is always the original resource.

however, this is AMP, and so everybody hates it.

[1] https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/blob/main/explainers/sign...

A phyrric victory for a Web that is basically ChromeOS.

Ever heard of Web Bundles?

https://web.dev/web-bundles/

https://github.com/WICG/webpackage

I think advertising is positive [1] and the role of ads in funding freely-available sites is very important. My current work is primarily on how browsers can allow more private and secure advertising [2][3][4] which I think most people will agree is valuable even if they are less in favor of advertising in general.

At a lower level, I do this job because I'm paid, which allows me to donate. [5] But I wouldn't do this work if I thought it was harmful; there are lots of different kinds of jobs I could take.

[1] https://www.jefftk.com/p/effect-of-advertising

[2] https://github.com/google/fledge-shim

[3] https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/issues/161

[4] https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/issues/624

[5] https://www.jefftk.com/donations

data urls encode things in base64 format so bloat up the file. Also the user agent can't just seek over them, requiring it to parse the entire included base64 content. There are better ways, but sadly nothing cross platform:

* https://github.com/WICG/webpackage

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Webarchive

it's unfortunate that the sour response to this impressive privacy work (https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/blob/main/FLEDGE_k_anonym...) will likely lead to people turning it off, and buried in their is the switch for Private State Tokens (https://github.com/WICG/trust-token-api/blob/main/README.md)

It'll be interesting to see how this goes. Google and Mozilla+Meta each have competing standards.

https://github.com/WICG/turtledove

https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/privacy-preserving-attri...

To my knowledge, Mozilla's design is the only one where someone other than the browser collects & reports on click activity, and with a fairly trustless anonymizing double blind strategy for those intermediaries.

https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/blob/main/FLEDGE_k_anonym...

you can target an Economist reader a week later on a different website. If FLoC works, you can still do that.

https://github.com/WICG/floc won't really let advertisers do that, this is what https://github.com/WICG/turtledove is for

(Disclosure: I work on ads at Google, speaking only for myself)

The issue is that the replacement that are currently in the works (https://github.com/WICG/floc and https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/blob/main/FLEDGE.md) are extremely complex, will still dramatically impact adtech performance and only improve privacy for a very contrived definition of the concept which incidentally benefits once again big tech vendors...

As to the effectiveness of advertising, removing tracking will have a huge impact. And this affects all players in the value chain, not only adtech providers but also publishers and more importantly advertisers which will see their return on ad spent severely impacted. There is a real of loss "social welfare" (I mean in a game-theoretic sense, but also for real if you believe in capitalism) if tracking is disabled.

Check FLEDGE initiative for this case. The mechanism has not been settled yet, but moves in the needed direction: https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/blob/main/FLEDGE.md#11-joining-interest-groups

I think advertising is positive [1] and the role of ads in funding freely-available sites is very important. My current work is primarily on how browsers can allow more private and secure advertising [2][3][4] which I think most people will agree is valuable even if they are less in favor of advertising in general.

At a lower level, I do this job because I'm paid, which allows me to donate. [5] But I wouldn't do this work if I thought it was harmful; there are lots of different kinds of jobs I could take.

[1] https://www.jefftk.com/p/effect-of-advertising

[2] https://github.com/google/fledge-shim

[3] https://github.com/WICG/turtledove/issues/161

[4] https://github.com/WICG/webpackage/issues/624

[5] https://www.jefftk.com/donations

Why do Google's FLoC, TURTLEDOVE, Dovekey, Criteo's SPARROW, Magnite's PARRROT, NextRoll's TERN and Microsoft's PARAKEET all have similar bird-related names? This feels very cruel considering that in most cultures birds often symbolise freedom.