prql VS TablaM

> I completely attribute this to SQL being difficult or "backwards" to parse. I mean backwards in the way that in SQL you start with what you want first (the SELECT) rather than what you have and widdling it down.

> The turning point for me was to just accept SQL for what it is.

Or just write PRQL and compile it to SQL

https://github.com/PRQL/prql

Hey HN! We’ve built Pretzel, an open-source data exploration and visualization tool that runs fully in the browser and can handle large files (200 MB CSV on my 8gb MacBook air is snappy). It’s also reactive - so if, for example, you change a filter, all the data transform blocks after it re-evaluate automatically. You can try it here: https://pretzelai.github.io/ (static hosted webpage) or see a demo video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73wNEun_L7w

You can play with the demo CSV that’s pre-loaded (GitHub data of text-editor adjacent projects) or upload your own CSV/XLSX file. The tool runs fully in-browser—you can disconnect from the internet once the website loads—so feel free to use sensitive data if you like.

Here’s how it works: You upload a CSV file and then, explore your data as a series of successive data transforms and plots. For example, you might: (1) Remove some columns; (2) Apply some filters (remove nulls, remove outliers, restrict time range etc); (3) Do a pivot (i.e, a group-by but fancier); (4) Plot a chart; (5) Download the chart and the the transformed data. See screenshot: https://imgur.com/a/qO4yURI

In the UI, each transform step appears as a “Block”. You can always see the result of the full transform in a table on the right. The transform blocks are editable - for instance in the example above, you can go to step 2, change some filters and the reactivity will take care of re-computing all the cells that follow, including the charts.

We wanted Pretzel to run locally in the browser and be extremely performant on large files. So, we parse CSVs with the fastest CSV parser (uDSV: https://github.com/leeoniya/uDSV) and use DuckDB-Wasm (https://github.com/duckdb/duckdb-wasm) to do all the heavy lifting of processing the data. We also wanted to allow for chained data transformations where each new block operates on the result of the previous block. For this, we’re using PRQL (https://prql-lang.org/) since it maps 1-1 with chained data transform blocks - each block maps to a chunk of PRQL which when combined, describes the full data transform chain. (PRQL doesn’t support DuckDB’s Pivot statement though so we had to make some CTE based hacks).

There’s also an AI block: This is the only (optional) feature that requires an internet connection but we’re working on adding local model support via Ollama. For now, you can use your own OpenAI API key or use an AI server we provide (GPT4 proxy; it’s loaded with a few credits), specify a transform in plain english and get back the SQL for the transform which you can edit.

Our roadmap includes allowing API calls to create new columns; support for an SQL block with nice autocomplete features, and a Python block (using Pyodide to run Python in the browser) on the results of the data transforms, much like a jupyter notebook.

There’s two of us and we’ve only spent about a week coding this and fixing major bugs so there are still some bugs to iron out. We’d love for you to try this and to get your feedback!

> Looks like PRQL doesn't have a Go library so I guess they just really wanted something in Go?

There's some C bindings and the example in the README shows integration with Go:

https://github.com/PRQL/prql/tree/main/prqlc/bindings/prqlc-...

Can someone tell me why PRQL is better? I went here: https://github.com/PRQL/prql

It looks nice, but what's the strengths compared to SQL?

PRQL [1] is a compile-to-SQL relational querying language that puts FROM first.

[1] https://prql-lang.org

https://prql-lang.org/ might be an answer for this. As a cross-database pipelined language, it would allow RAG to be intermixed with the query, and the syntax may(?) be more reliable to generate

> Very curious if anyone knows how to pull this off.

I work in this space (small/mid-size).

The good news is that there are several "obvious" ways to pull this off because an ERP is the culmination of everything a company needs and does. So almost anything you can imagine on the software is part of it.

The bad news, and the reason everyone wants a solution, is that is truly a big space, and then you need E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.

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My take is to start from the bottom, and build a much better version of Access/FoxPro (https://tablam.org).

Any medium/big ERP end being a specialized computing platform that needs:

- A programming language

- A database engine

- An orchestration engine

- ELT engine

- Auth

- UI/Report builders

And to be clear: NONE of the "programming language", "database engine", etc are a good fit today.

NONE.

This is the big thing, This is the reason (from a tech POW only) that most attempts fail.

This is the secret of why Cobol rule(d): Is all of this! but is too old! (also, this is why SQL still is best: Is almost this).

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So, to pull this off, you need a team that knows what is "missing" from our current tools, makes a well-integrated package, and adds a "user-friendly" interface in a way that is palatable for the kind of user that uses excel (powerfully).

Is not that impossible. FoxPro was the best example of this kind of integrated solution.

P.D: This is my life's dream, to make this truth!

SEEKING VOLUNTEERS: TablaM relational language (https://tablam.org)

TablaM is an in-progress programming language to provide a more ergonomic experience for building data-oriented applications.

This means that where most languages are focused on low-level details or engineering at large, TablaM is tailored with some small & big design decisions to make it enjoyable to write applications for e-commerce, finance, ERPs, and similar.

Cool things:

- TablaM marry the array + relational models. It means we should get very little need for manual loops and all the ops are vectorized.

Yeah, I worked on https://tablam.org and https://spacetimedb.com.

It becomes pretty clear that `order` is a significant property to make useful (and performant!) programs. "Duplicates" is also required to make usefull programs.

One nonobvious reason for this: You wanna report that a `customer` has a duplicated key `1`. If you CAN'T model `[(customer.id = 1), (customer.id = 1)]` then you can't report errors! And `erroneous` data is VITAL to make useful programs because then the only possibility is "perfect" data, and that is not possible!

Another reason is that we want to `count` duplicates, to see `duplicates`, and other NON-obvious at first: "What is a duplicate?". Get fun with floats, Unicode, combining case and non-case sensitive input... and is obvious that for useful programs IS REQUIRED to support bags in an extended version of the relational model.

And yet...

IS very important to remember about `set semantics` and try to adhere to it when makes sense. Your query planner will like it. You "valid" constraints like it. And `unique index` like it. And so on...

Finally, for app development, I will "suggest" everyone use my lang https://tablam.org!

This is moe interesting than it looks, probably because the best part (IMHO) is about the type system, that is what enables the other ideas.

> In Julia, types are first-class and every value has a type

This is what I do from the start in https://tablam.org and only later found that is not common! Is so intuitive this way and simpler to check, by a lot. In fact, I waste so much time adapting type inference algorithms that are hard to translate because for some reason graphs are imposed on trees, types are second-class and live at a distance (and erased) and all is a mess this way.

The relational model already makes this so simple: `project / rename / extend` relational operators cover you.

From this other facilities become possible. Note how in `SQL` you don't have functions as first-class per se, but now try to imagine that a function is a table and suddenly, is much better!

My relational lang (https://tablam.org) that I wish to be a Excel + Access replacement is still half-backed.

I move it slowly in my personal computer but not much in public. Maybe adding another person will help me on that!

> what is a good alternative to Access (or Fox, I add)

Nothing.

Access is(was) in fact a worse alternative to Fox:

- Much worse DB engine, and that is saying a lot (FoxPro db can and get corrupted. A typical functionality that was added to any fox codebase was a utility to fix it)

- MUCH MUCH worse programming language (VB) that is neither good as-is, much less as a data-programing language.

Fox/dbase is the only data-oriented language that was relatively popular and fit for the use-case.

This is by a mile the main point: Is a desert looking for languages that are made for business app/data oriented programing (and much harder looking for something not weird).

The main options: Fox/dBase/Informix(? not remember), kdb+, Cobol, SQL(when extended as store procedure lang with loops and that)

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This point is big. Having a good form builder (that is already rare) is not enough to be a real contender for this space. You need a language where making queries is truly nice.

In short, you need a language that is `LINQ/Relational` as first-class end-to-end.

- If this lang needs an ORM: FAIL.

- If this lang needs to compose strings to make a query: FAIL.

- If exist "impedance mismatch" between data manipulation/queries and the rest of the lang: FAIL.

- It should also support super-advanced types like date, decimal, currency and ideally dimensional units. Ideally algebraic types as today.

- It should have a version of Rust `serve, Into/From` for easy conversion between data + formats.

- It should look "normal" like python/swift with `LINQ` queries.

This is the lang I trying to build: https://tablam.org

> I asked was about querying data without ever using a SQL language, like tapping directly into the data.

I agree (making https://tablam.org to try a fix & working on https://github.com/clockworklabs/SpacetimeDB in the SQL conformance).

Before I think SQL was bad. *Now I'm certain*. SQL is absurdly massive for things that could have collapse all the features 10x or more.

However, working in an RDBM now I also understand why is not desirable to make "raw" calls to the DB: The engine MUST mediate all the calls to make things works (from query optimization, execution, iteration, lock management, transaction management, etc).

Is incredible how much sophistication is in a simple `SELECT * FROM table`.

What I wish is to build a `Wasm-like` IR so that is what anybody target, and `SQL` is not the mediator.

In my case each lang I have learned (+12) I start coding a mini-ORM. I have done the same so many times, and that is a good way to learn from me. Also, I have to learn Rust building https://tablam.org.

It sounds puzzling, I start learning Rust with https://tablam.org and probably was making my life harder trying to do "advanced" stuff when not have any idea of what I was doing.