opentitan VS hn-search

Thanks for the info these all certainly sound like promising developments though I still think there's a major hurdles to overcome.

> good PPA with popular backend tools

Getting good PPA for any given thing you can express in the language is only part of the problem. The other aspect is how easy does the language make it to express the thing you need to get the best PPA (discussed in example below)?

> Think of it like a source map that allows you to jump back and forth between the final System Verilog and the source HDL.

This definitely sounds useful (I wish synthesis tools did something similar!) but again it's only part of the puzzle here. It's all very well to identify the part of the HDL that relates to some physical part of the circuit but how easy is it to go from that to working out how to manipulate the HDL such that you get the physical circuit you want?

As a small illustrative example here's a commit for a timing fix I did recently: https://github.com/lowRISC/opentitan/commit/1fc57d2c550f2027.... It's for a specialised CPU for asymmetric crypto. It has a call stack that's accessible via a register (actually a general stack but typical used for return addresses for function calls). The register file looks to see if you're accessing the stack register, in which case it redirects your access to an internal stack structure and when reading returns the top of the stack. If you're not accessing the stack it just reads directly from the register file as usual.

The problem comes (as it often does in CPU design) in error handling. When an error occurs you want to stop the stack push/pop from happening (there's multiple error categories and one instruction could trigger several of them, see the documentation: https://opentitan.org/book/hw/ip/otbn/index.html for details). Whether you observed an error or not was factored into the are you doing a stack push or pop calculation and in turn factored into the mux that chose between data from the top of the stack and data from the register file. The error calculation is complex and comes later on in the cycle, so factoring it into the mux was not good as it made the register file data turn up too late. The solution, once the issue was identified, was simple, separate the logic deciding whether action itself should occur (effectively the flop enables for the logic making up the stack) from the logic calculating whether or not we had a stack or register access (which is based purely on the register index being accessed). The read mux then uses the stack or register access calculation without the 'action actually occurs' logic and the timing problem is fixed.

To get to this fix you have two things to deal with, first taking the identified timing path and choosing a sensible point to target for optimization and second actually being able to do the optimization. Simply having a mapping saying this gate relates to this source line only gets you so far, especially if you've got abstractions in your language such that a single source line can generate complex structures. You need to be able to easily understand how all those source lines relate to one another to create the path to choose where to optimise something.

Then there's the optimization itself, pretty trivial in this case as it was isolated to the register file which already had separate logic to determine whether we were actually going to take the action vs determine if we were accessing the stack register or a normal register. Because of SystemVerilog's lack of powerful abstractions making a tweak to get the read mux to use the earlier signal was easy to do but how does that work when you've got more powerful abstractions that deal with all the muxing for you in cases like this and the tool is producing the mux select signal for you. How about where the issue isn't isolated to a single module and spread around (e.g. see another fix I did https://github.com/lowRISC/opentitan/commit/f6913b422c0fb82d... which again boils down to separating the 'this action is happening' from the 'this action could happen' logic and using it appropriately in different places).

I haven't spend much time looking at Chisel so it may be there's answers to this but if it gives you powerful abstractions you end up having to think harder to connect those abstractions to the physical circuit result. A tool telling you gate X was ultimately produced by source line Y is useful but doesn't give you everything you need.

> the combination of Chisel and CIRCT offers a unique solution to a deeper problem than dealing with minor annoyances in System Verilog: capturing design intent beyond the RTL

lowRISC https://lowrisc.org | Non-profit | Cambridge, UK | Zurich, Switzerland | Design Verification Engineers | Infrastructure Engineer | HYBRID | Full time

lowRISC's mission is to bring open source silicon to the hardware world and see it shipping in volume in commercial applications. We want to see open source silicon occupy a similar position to open source software (e.g. look at Linux, it's the default choice in many applications, we'd like open source silicon to be used for similar foundational technologies in the hardware world).

Our major project focus is OpenTitan: https://github.com/lowRISC/opentitan it’s a silicon root of trust being built and funded by a collaboration of major companies, such as Google, Western Digital, Seagate, Winbond and Rivos amongst others. lowRISC stewards the project as well as performing a significant proportion of the engineering work.

We’ve just announced the RTL freeze for the first OpenTitan tapeout, a discrete chip, named Earl Grey: https://lowrisc.org/blog/2023/06/opentitans-rtl-freeze-lever...

We’re looking for verification and infrastructure engineers to join us. We work in System Verilog and use UVM, though plan to expand our use of formal verification. We’re also keen to explore new innovative ways to verify designs.

A key responsibility for lowRISC is maintaining the CI and regression infrastructure for OpenTitan. This is a complex system running many different tools across different machines (both cloud and on-site) and involves FPGAs and custom hardware. We use ansible and terraform to manage it all. We’re seeking an infrastructure engineer to maintain and scale the system as well as architect and build new facets of it.

lowRISC is headquartered in Cambridge, UK and we have an office in Zürich, Switzerland. We utilize a hybrid working model.

We offer competitive salaries (see job ads for ranges) and a generous pension (12.5% employer contribution in the UK), you can find our individual job postings here: https://lowrisc.applytojob.com/apply/

Feel free to email me at [email protected] if you’ve got any questions.

We're aiming to push things in the other direction with OpenTitan: https://github.com/lowRISC/opentitan/

It's an Open Silicon root of trust, all RTL (the actual hardware design in SystemVerilog), firmware, documentation and verification environment is open source and in the repository I just linked.

We're closing in on our first discrete chip (details here https://opensource.googleblog.com/2023/06/opentitan-rtl-free... and https://lowrisc.org/blog/2023/06/opentitans-rtl-freeze-lever...) and have lots more in the pipeline (our project director Dom Rizzo gave a keynote at the Barcelona RISC-V Europe summit recently with some details, sadly not available on video yet).

The hope is this will be a real proof point of the value of open source in hardware and, if as successful as we like it to be, can push the industry from a closed by default to people having to justify why they're not using open technology.

Our major project focus is OpenTitan: https://github.com/lowRISC/opentitan it’s a silicon root of trust being built and funded by a collaboration of major companies, such as Google, Western Digital, Seagate, Winbond and Rivos amongst others. lowRISC stewards the project as well as performing a significant proportion of the engineering work.

Interesting to see more potential entrants into this space. I work on OpenTitan https://opentitan.org/ which I believe will do much (indeed maybe everything) of what Cramium and Bunnie are aiming for (of course being a stealth startup hard to know what their plans actually are). We're at an advanced stage of development and being open you can take a look at our work right now https://github.com/lowRISC/OpenTitan our nightly regression dashboards demonstrate the project's maturity https://reports.opentitan.org/hw/top_earlgrey/dv/latest/repo... and https://reports.opentitan.org/hw/top_earlgrey/dv/summary/lat...

Um hello? Google already has an open source hardware root of trust, called OpenTitan. Why didn't they just use that?

We've changed the URL to that from https://github.com/lowRISC/opentitan,

and the title from

Whilst open source hardware work goes back a fair way, I feel we're really at a turning point where it can become a serious force within the hardware world (think late 80s/early 90s in software terms, Linux and GCC emerging and beginning to find their feet). There's lots of interesting developments in tooling plus significant open hardware projects on-going.

I shall take the opportunity to plug OpenTitan: https://github.com/lowRISC/opentitan

It's an open source root of trust being developed collaboratively by multiple companies such as lowRISC (who I work for), Google, Western Digital and Seagate amongst others. We've been rather quiet on the PR front but there's a lot of engineering work happening and other exciting things we can't yet make public.

Whilst there's some things we have to keep closed (generally relating to ASIC design kits and things like Flash and memory IP) the vast majority of the RTL, documentation and software is open. Plus we're doing development in the open, the public repo is our live development repo. We're not developing it in private then just opening the end product.

We use Verilator to do full system simulations of OpenTitan (https://github.com/lowRISC/opentitan) but couple that with a full DV environment using standard commercial simulators with UVM. The Verilator environment is used to run self checking system tests written in C.

Whilst the 64-bit SoC project isn't being actively developed we are working hard on OpenTitan (https://opentitan.org/, https://github.com/lowRISC/opentitan) which we hope will become the first large scale deployment of significant open source silicon IP.

- Ads with Psychological tricks

Truly good websites have around 2 facts per 10 word sentence, and get instantly to the chase. Also: good websites give you the names of all their competitors/alternative websites before showing their own stuff, and give you further reading.

Right now the world of technology is supposedly more innovative than ever, but somehow Wikipedia (https://www.wikipedia.org/) and Search Hackernews (https://hn.algolia.com/) beat billion dollar search engines.

Articles written decades ago are still unsurpassed in terms of quality and ease of understanding, but the best modern websites can do is textbook explanations. It is time society graduates from boilerplate buzzword textbook culture.

Now the gems of the internet are slowly being buried beneath mountains of trash.

If something sounds boilerplate it isn't good enough.

Don't bother saying something that has been said before, and better.

>for more detail: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Oh, I see. We actually discussed Pound about four years ago - just a little back and forth about the ABC of Reading: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24196681

>What's your explanation of why Pound went Fascist?

I'm not sure I particularly have one; I haven't read any of his longer political or cultural (i.e. non-literary) works. I just think it's silly to correlate an approach to translation that you dislike with fascism. Especially as I'm not sure it even makes sense on its own terms: I can only read your comment as 'lazy translator? Figures that he would be a fascist', but if I imagine the type of translation a fascist would approve of, the approach I picture is fastidious, fussy, concerned with fidelity to the point of stickler-ishness. (Isn't that from where we get 'grammar nazi'?)

And oh, well, since you ask I'll take a shy at it: my vague sense is that he became fascist because saw a society in decline due to it becoming more and more a sham society: opulence without virtue, power without vigour, money no longer tied to actually existing goods. (Of course, all of this shades easily into antisemitism.) He saw fascism as the answer; It's easier to see in retrospect that it wasn't.

"multiplayer notepad" goes back 15 years at least - https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu... notepad&sort=byDate&type=comment

it was used back with a popular website which opened a text document and anyone viewing could type, but I can't remember the name. That became a thing in Google Docs, Microsoft Office, Floobits, and lots of self-hosted and cloned sites.

If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us at [email protected].

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

Ok, but please don't post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News.

I understand the reason for repeating these sentiments—it's the same reason why they get upvoted to the top of threads*—but repetition of this kind is what we're most trying to avoid here.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

* I've marked this one off topic now.

I was looking for it in the guidelines. There are a couple of conventions for postings. Consider a bit of prior examples: [https://hn.algolia.com/?q=show+hn]

yeah there are only three stories coming up from the site search

https://hn.algolia.com/?q=postgres+clustering

only one is semanthically correct, the other pick up the wrong version of clustering (i.e. k-means instead of multi master writes)

but yeah if one doesn't test the hard cases, how does one know it preserves semantics :D

Like dismissing the work of Feyerabend or Wittgenstein without seemingly having read either:

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=pastMonth&page=0&prefix=tr...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...