hubris VS unsafe-code-guidelines

> The CPUs in Oxide racks are AMD, so, presumably AMD-based compute rather than ARM.

These don’t run Hubris though; based on the chips directory in the repo [0], they’re targeting a mix of NXP and ST parts, which are Arm, and the user isn’t likely to see them or care what firmware they’re running: they’re really pretty “boring”.

[0] : https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris/tree/020d014880382d8...

I wouldn't put this comment here. It's not just some detail of this function; it's an invariant of the field that all writers have to respect (maybe this is the only one now but still) and all readers can take advantage of. So I'd add it to the `TaskDesc::regions` docstring. [1]

[1] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris/commit/b44e677fb39cd...

With respect to Hubris, the build badge was, in turns out, pointing to a stale workflow. (That is, the build was succeeding, but the build badge was busted.) This comment has been immortalized in the fix.[0]

With respect to Humility, I am going to resist the temptation of pointing out why one of those directories has a different nomenclature with respect to its delimiter -- and just leave it at this: if you really want to find some filthy code in Humility, you can do much, much better than that!

[0] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris/commit/651a9546b20ce...

A lot of questions in there! Taking these in order:

1. We aren't making standalone servers: the Oxide compute sled comes in the Oxide rack. So are not (and do not intend to be) a drop in replacement for extant rack mounted servers.

2. We have taken a fundamentally different approach to firmware, with a true root of trust that can attest to the service processor -- which can turn attest to the system software. This prompts a lot of questions (e.g., who attests to the root of trust?), and there is a LOT to say about this; look for us to talk a lot more about this

3. In stark contrast (sadly) to nearly everyone else in the server space, the firmware we are developing is entirely open source. More details on that can be found in Cliff Biffle's 2021 OSFC talk and the Hubris and Humility repos.[0][1][2]

4. Definitely not vaporware! We are in the process of shipping to our first customers; you can follow our progress in our Oxide and Friends podcast.[3]

[0] https://www.osfc.io/2021/talks/on-hubris-and-humility-develo...

[1] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris

[2] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/humility

[3] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/

everywhere, for example in https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris/search?q=dyn

Is Box really allocating here? Is the "Rust By Example" text incomplete?

Then I had to stop learning Rust for other reasons, but this doubt really hit me at the time.

I work on an embedded OS in Rust (Hubris) that has a very bespoke build system. As part of the build system, it has to set environmental variables based on (1) the target device and (2) the specific "task"; this is an OS with task-level isolation, so tasks are compiled as individual Rust crates.

Oxide Computer told some storied about the difficulty of bring up of a new motherboard, and mentioned a lot of gotcha details and hack solutions for managing their AMD chip.

They talked about their bring up sequence, boot chain verification on their motherboard, and designing / creating / verifying their hardware root of trust.

I heard mention of this on a podcast recently, trying to find the reference.

I'm pretty sure it was [S3]

- "Tales from the Bringup Lab" https://lnns.co/FBf5oLpyHK3

- or "More Tales from the Bringup Lab" https://lnns.co/LQur_ToJX9m

But I found again these interesting things worth sharing on that search. https://oxide.computer/blog/hubris-and-humility, https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris

Search 1 [S1], Trammell Hudson ep mentioning firmware (chromebook related iirc) https://lnns.co/pystdPm0QvG.

Search 2 [S2], Security, Cryptography, Whatever podcast episode mentioning Oxide and roots of trust or similar. https://lnns.co/VnyTvdhBiGC

Search links:

[S1]: https://www.listennotes.com/search/?q=oxide+tpm

[S2]: https://www.listennotes.com/search/?q=oxide%20and%20friends%...

[S3]: https://www.listennotes.com/search/?q=oxide%20and%20friends%...

When we started the company, we knew it would be a three year build -- and indeed, our first product is in the final stages of development (i.e. EMC/safety certification). We have been very transparent about our progress along the way[0][1][2][3][4][5][6][7] -- and our software is essentially all open source, so you can follow along there as well.[8][9][10]

If you are asking "does anyone want a rack-scale computer?" the (short) answer is: yes, they do. The on-prem market has been woefully underserved -- and there are plenty of folks who are sick of Dell/HPE/VMware/Cisco, to say nothing of those who are public cloud borne and wondering if they should perhaps own some of their own compute rather than rent it all.

[0] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/holistic-bo...

[1] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/the-oxide-s...

[2] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/bringup-lab...

[3] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/more-tales-...

[4] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/another-lpc...

[5] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/the-pragmat...

[6] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/tales-from-...

[7] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/the-sidecar...

[8] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/omicron

[9] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/propolis

[10] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris

Useful context on the Rust side is this issue [1]. It sounds like some of the author's concerns are addressed already.

[1]: https://github.com/rust-lang/unsafe-code-guidelines/issues/4...

Is this captured by one of the known soundness conflicts? If not then should consider adding it to the list.

There are some competing proposals for different memory models. Stacked borrows is the current proposal, but there are more work in the approproate WG.

Thank you /u/RalfJung for bringing formal methods to Rust, both through models like Stacked Borrows, by developing miri, and by working on unsafe-code-guidelines which aims to specify exactly what is and isn't allowed in unsafe code (surprisingly, it's an open question as 2023!)

You could imagine some way to make this safe for example automatically convert &'short &'long mut T to &'short &'short T, but it's non-trivial to prove they are safe at all, not to mention ensuring this is correctly implemented in the compiler. If you're interested there's also a discussion on whether the opposite (& & T to & &mut T) is sound here.

Agreed! MIRI is so good, it still feels like magic to me. It also comforts me that the Rust team takes improving unsafe semantics seriously, with the past Unsafe Code Guidelines WG and today's operational semantics team (t-opsem).

I think there are some aspects of this rule that are still undecided. See for example:

- https://github.com/rust-lang/unsafe-code-guidelines/issues/8...

- https://github.com/rust-lang/miri/issues/2732

C is much better specified than unsafe Rust. Some things are just not worked out yet in Rust. This may sometimes even bite very experienced devs, such as this issue with Box's aliasing semantics, which tripped up the author of left-right.