hubris VS humility

> The CPUs in Oxide racks are AMD, so, presumably AMD-based compute rather than ARM.

These don’t run Hubris though; based on the chips directory in the repo [0], they’re targeting a mix of NXP and ST parts, which are Arm, and the user isn’t likely to see them or care what firmware they’re running: they’re really pretty “boring”.

[0] : https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris/tree/020d014880382d8...

I wouldn't put this comment here. It's not just some detail of this function; it's an invariant of the field that all writers have to respect (maybe this is the only one now but still) and all readers can take advantage of. So I'd add it to the `TaskDesc::regions` docstring. [1]

[1] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris/commit/b44e677fb39cd...

With respect to Hubris, the build badge was, in turns out, pointing to a stale workflow. (That is, the build was succeeding, but the build badge was busted.) This comment has been immortalized in the fix.[0]

With respect to Humility, I am going to resist the temptation of pointing out why one of those directories has a different nomenclature with respect to its delimiter -- and just leave it at this: if you really want to find some filthy code in Humility, you can do much, much better than that!

[0] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris/commit/651a9546b20ce...

A lot of questions in there! Taking these in order:

1. We aren't making standalone servers: the Oxide compute sled comes in the Oxide rack. So are not (and do not intend to be) a drop in replacement for extant rack mounted servers.

2. We have taken a fundamentally different approach to firmware, with a true root of trust that can attest to the service processor -- which can turn attest to the system software. This prompts a lot of questions (e.g., who attests to the root of trust?), and there is a LOT to say about this; look for us to talk a lot more about this

3. In stark contrast (sadly) to nearly everyone else in the server space, the firmware we are developing is entirely open source. More details on that can be found in Cliff Biffle's 2021 OSFC talk and the Hubris and Humility repos.[0][1][2]

4. Definitely not vaporware! We are in the process of shipping to our first customers; you can follow our progress in our Oxide and Friends podcast.[3]

[0] https://www.osfc.io/2021/talks/on-hubris-and-humility-develo...

[1] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris

[2] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/humility

[3] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/

everywhere, for example in https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris/search?q=dyn

Is Box really allocating here? Is the "Rust By Example" text incomplete?

Then I had to stop learning Rust for other reasons, but this doubt really hit me at the time.

I work on an embedded OS in Rust (Hubris) that has a very bespoke build system. As part of the build system, it has to set environmental variables based on (1) the target device and (2) the specific "task"; this is an OS with task-level isolation, so tasks are compiled as individual Rust crates.

Oxide Computer told some storied about the difficulty of bring up of a new motherboard, and mentioned a lot of gotcha details and hack solutions for managing their AMD chip.

They talked about their bring up sequence, boot chain verification on their motherboard, and designing / creating / verifying their hardware root of trust.

I heard mention of this on a podcast recently, trying to find the reference.

I'm pretty sure it was [S3]

- "Tales from the Bringup Lab" https://lnns.co/FBf5oLpyHK3

- or "More Tales from the Bringup Lab" https://lnns.co/LQur_ToJX9m

But I found again these interesting things worth sharing on that search. https://oxide.computer/blog/hubris-and-humility, https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris

Search 1 [S1], Trammell Hudson ep mentioning firmware (chromebook related iirc) https://lnns.co/pystdPm0QvG.

Search 2 [S2], Security, Cryptography, Whatever podcast episode mentioning Oxide and roots of trust or similar. https://lnns.co/VnyTvdhBiGC

Search links:

[S1]: https://www.listennotes.com/search/?q=oxide+tpm

[S2]: https://www.listennotes.com/search/?q=oxide%20and%20friends%...

[S3]: https://www.listennotes.com/search/?q=oxide%20and%20friends%...

When we started the company, we knew it would be a three year build -- and indeed, our first product is in the final stages of development (i.e. EMC/safety certification). We have been very transparent about our progress along the way[0][1][2][3][4][5][6][7] -- and our software is essentially all open source, so you can follow along there as well.[8][9][10]

If you are asking "does anyone want a rack-scale computer?" the (short) answer is: yes, they do. The on-prem market has been woefully underserved -- and there are plenty of folks who are sick of Dell/HPE/VMware/Cisco, to say nothing of those who are public cloud borne and wondering if they should perhaps own some of their own compute rather than rent it all.

[0] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/holistic-bo...

[1] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/the-oxide-s...

[2] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/bringup-lab...

[3] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/more-tales-...

[4] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/another-lpc...

[5] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/the-pragmat...

[6] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/tales-from-...

[7] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/episodes/the-sidecar...

[8] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/omicron

[9] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/propolis

[10] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris

A lot of questions in there! Taking these in order:

1. We aren't making standalone servers: the Oxide compute sled comes in the Oxide rack. So are not (and do not intend to be) a drop in replacement for extant rack mounted servers.

2. We have taken a fundamentally different approach to firmware, with a true root of trust that can attest to the service processor -- which can turn attest to the system software. This prompts a lot of questions (e.g., who attests to the root of trust?), and there is a LOT to say about this; look for us to talk a lot more about this

3. In stark contrast (sadly) to nearly everyone else in the server space, the firmware we are developing is entirely open source. More details on that can be found in Cliff Biffle's 2021 OSFC talk and the Hubris and Humility repos.[0][1][2]

4. Definitely not vaporware! We are in the process of shipping to our first customers; you can follow our progress in our Oxide and Friends podcast.[3]

[0] https://www.osfc.io/2021/talks/on-hubris-and-humility-develo...

[1] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris

[2] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/humility

[3] https://oxide-and-friends.transistor.fm/

It's a mix of embedded work and improving the system's tooling (faster builds, debugger support, etc)

Other folks have mentioned this, but it's important to understand the limitations of Rust with respect to safety. In particular: every stack operation is -- at some level -- an unsafe operation as it operates without a bounds check. This isn't Rust's fault per se; non-segmented architectures don't have an architecturally defined way to know the stack base. As a result, even an entirely safe Rust program can make an illegal access to memory that results in fatal program failure. That, of course, assumes memory protection; if you don't have memory protection (or, like many embedded operating systems, you don't make use of it), stack overflows will plow into adjacent memory.

But wait, it gets worse: stack overflows are often not due to infinite stack consumption (e.g., recursion) but rather simply going deep on an unusual code path. If stack consumption just goes slightly beyond the base of the stack and there is no memory protection, this is corrupt-and-run -- and you are left debugging a problem that looks every bit like a gnarly data race in an unsafe programming language. And this problem becomes especially acute when memory is scarce: you really don't want a tiny embedded system to be dedicating a bunch of its memory to stack space that will never ("never") be used, so you make the stacks as tight as possible -- making stack overflows in fact much more likely.

Indeed, even with the MPU, these problems were acute in the development of Hubris: we originally put the stack at the top of a task's data space, and its data at the bottom -- and we found that tasks that only slightly exceeded their stack (rather than running all of the way through its data and into the protection boundary) were corrupting themselves with difficult-to-debug failures. We flipped the order to assure that every stack overflow hit the protection boundary[0], which required us to be much more intentional about the stack versus data split -- but had the added benefit of allowing us to add debugging support for it.[1]

Stack overflows are still pesky (and still a leading cause of task death!), but without the MPU, each one of these stack overflows would be data corruption -- answering for us viscerally what we "need the MPU for."

[0] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris/commit/d75e832931f67...

[1] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/humility#humility-stackmarg...

In addition to Cliff's talk/blog -- which are absolutely outstanding -- I would recommend listening to the Twitter Space we did on Hubris and Humility last week.[0] It was a really fun conversation, and it also serves as a bit of a B-side for the talk in that it goes into some of the subtler details that we feel are important, but didn't quite rise to the level of the presentation. And of course, be sure to check out the source itself![1][2]

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cypmufnPfLw

[1] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/hubris

[2] https://github.com/oxidecomputer/humility

Humility (the debugger)