Magnit.NodeGraph VS openscad-graph-editor

Oh sweet! I was in the middle of building my own version of a node-graph component (ref: https://github.com/catapart/Magnit.NodeGraph), but the `canvas.js` implementation from this JsonCanvas repo is exactly what I was trying to build. I really, really like how elegantly uncomplex it is. Could not have been more exactly what I was looking for. So thanks for this!

As far as the spec, I don't really like the idea of forcing well-known types for the nodes. A generic spec should allow for entirely generic nodes that can represent themselves to consuming functions with a 'type' property as a key, as well as arbitrary data types linked to arbitrary nodes. For instance: one of my use cases is an 'addition' node, which would take two number values and produce a number value. This node would also use an entrance execution pin as well as an exit execution pin.

If the spec were to include a 'pin' data type and capture the type keys and labels for pins, those pins could be stored as a list on the node. Then, the type property could just tell the executing context how to route the node data and the pin properties would bring type safety to the functional inputs passed to the mapped function.

Anyway, I assume all of that is out of scope for initial offerings, but that's my two cents on a generalized node spec. Regardless, thanks again for the sweet, simplistic node graph implementation!

> If people don't intrinsically understand you, maybe you need to go in to more detail so your explanation isn't so abstract.

People did; you didn't.

> Ergo, vis-a-vi have you ever actually tried making a graph that is rearranging itself while you're using it?

No one said anything about "while you're using it". Linters don't fuck up your text as you type it. It's a utility like anything else. And, YES, I have built a working version of one. It doesn't use machine learning/tensors at all, and it's a fucking nightmare to develop. I can see exactly where those things would help me. It's too abstract, to you, to understand? That's a shame! But other people seem to get it, so if you are having trouble, maybe try approaching your ignorance with openness and curiosity instead of cynicism and trivialization ('uncross some lines').

If you want to know how much time I've spent working on node edge graphs, you wouldn't believe me. But I can at least point you to the start of the web-component version I'm porting: https://github.com/catapart/Magnit.NodeGraph

Shameless plug time! I've been working on something like this as a custom web component with no dependencies: https://github.com/catapart/Magnit.NodeGraph

Not the most feature rich - I'm developing it for a single project, so that's project's needs come first. But it's rudimentary enough to start from if you're looking to build your own, and it's simple enough to customize if it already does what you need.

I really wish Livecode hadn't pulled their opensource/Community Edition (and I'd be very glad for someone to do something with that code).

Gambas is something I keep wanting to try and seems promising.

I did one small app w/ Python and TKinter, but it was a dense wall of text/code when I was finished and not something I was interested in revisiting. I keep seeing suggestions that Python w/ QT support is supposed to be quite good.

One unlikely option is Google's Blockly (which I wish had a stand-alone desktop implementation which would make graphical programs), which has a nifty version implementing OpenSCAD:

https://www.blockscad3d.com/editor/

which I've used a fair bit. Moving on from there, there is: https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor which has the advantage of encompassing the entirety of OpenSCAD. It's also possible to wrap up Python using PythonSCAD.org

If you're willing to consider other node/line connection systems two promising options are:

https://ryven.org/

and

https://nodezator.com/

What sort of coding, on what sort of projects do you want to do?

The Cube was a gift, and the PS work didn't go that far.

I found PS pretty inscrutable, esp. the function-filled variant used in Virtuoso, but did manage to get dimension lines coded up (which promptly ran into precision problems which I eventually gave up on).

OpenSCAD is a lot more approachable, and METAPOST was easy to pick up and make use of:

http://ftp.tug.org/TUGboat/tb40-2/tb125adams-3d.pdf

Still working through this at:

https://willadams.gitbook.io/design-into-3d/3d-project

and mostly using visual tools (which arguably is limiting me) https://www.blockscad3d.com/editor/ and https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor and of course, had to throw: http://pythonscad.org/ into the mix. Still a bit miffed that Nodebox and Processing or maker.js weren't a good fit.

As a visual person (traditionally trained as a graphic artist), I've wanted this sort of thing for a long while, and I've been trying to use it for 3D.

Surprisingly, there are multiple specialized tools for this:

- https://www.blockscad3d.com --- an adaptation of Google's Blockly to OpenSCAD

- https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor --- wires and nodes, it has the advantage of exposing _all_ of OpenSCAD's commands (the above has a subset)

- https://github.com/Tanneguydv/Pythonocc-nodes-for-Ryven --- a module for using PythonOCC in Ryven --- when I finally succeeded, I found the language inscrutable, even when provided w/ quite nice examples (definitely a failing on my part, not that of the tool)

- https://github.com/graphscad/graphscad --- it took a long while for the source code for this to be made available, and for a while it had compatibility problems (why was "cube" redefined?) --- probably defunct for political reasons, it had some interesting ideas, in particular the ability to have custom icons for modules

- https://www.nodebox.net --- if memory serves I got hung up by not easily being able to do 3D, and when doing 2D having precision problems (or maybe that was Processing.org)

and I've been using these tools to make various things:

https://willadams.gitbook.io/design-into-3d/3d-project

(and maybe eventually I'll finish something)

The problem I've been running into is there doesn't seem to be an answer to the question:

"What does an algorithm look like?"

I recently had occasion to mention Herman Hesse's _The Glass Bead Game_ (also published as _Magister Ludi_) and I'll bring it up again --- what is a meaningful graphical representation of a program?

The Drakon folks argued that there should be one true path but that's not really communicative and I would note that if this was a simple thing it wouldn't be decades since I last saw a physical Flowcharting Template:

https://americanhistory.si.edu/collections/object-groups/flo...

(and it's pretty rare to even see a well-done electronic drawing of a flowchart since Visio made its splash and vanished into the bowels of Microsoft)

The main problem seems to be one of expressiveness not scaling up well, hence:

https://blueprintsfromhell.tumblr.com/

https://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com/

Presumably, one doesn't want to define modules/variables unnecessarily --- but the question becomes where is that boundary?

If you define too many, then you're back to the "wall of text" which one was trying to avoid (but wrapped up in nice boxes with some lines or shapes), and if one doesn't use them (well, look at the pretty/awful images in the links above).

Ideally, a well-coded visual program would have a pleasing aesthetic appearance which is expressive and communicates flow and function, and I've tried for that at:

https://willadams.gitbook.io/design-into-3d/programming

(though I wish that there was an easy way to export an SVG version of a program)

I believe that what is needed here is some graphical equivalent to Literate Programming: http://literateprogramming.com

Is there a nice GUI toolkit integration which would allow making a graphical application with this? I have an idea I want to try it which might be a good fit.

_That_ is a question I want an answer for.

Currently I am using OpenSCAD Graph Editor: https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor to create programs:

https://willadams.gitbook.io/design-into-3d/programming#open...

but the fundamental question which remains unanswered is:

>What does an algorithm look like?

Interesting.

I've long been frustrated by traditional CAD/CAM, so finally worked up:

https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview

which allows me to use:

http://pythonscad.org/

and:

https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor

to create joinery:

https://forum.makerforums.info/t/openscad-and-python-looking...

which would otherwise be tedious to draw up:

https://community.carbide3d.com/t/creating-drawers/19475/26

Yes, unless you're a visually oriented person like myself who is trying to do the programming visually.

I use:

https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor

to try to design woodworking projects:

https://forum.makerforums.info/t/openscad-and-python-looking...

and I'd like to think that I'm managing to keep the visual appearance sufficiently expressive that it is easier to work with than a traditional textual code representation --- jury is still out on that, we'll see when I start re-purposing what I'm working on for odd/even sides, and then then doing the horizontal version of the joinery.

The problem here is that a fundamental question has not been answered, and as far as I can tell, has not been addressed by any of these visual environments:

What does an algorithm look like?

Herman Hesse alluded to this in his novel _The Glass Bead Game_, but despite decades of discussion and work, no one has made a convincing pysical representation of that system.

I love the concept, and have made some moderately complex attempts, e.g.,:

https://www.blockscad3d.com/community/projects/1430644

https://github.com/WillAdams/gcodepreview

it always devolves to screen size being out-paced by problem complexity --- one gets something of an inkling of this at:

https://scriptsofanotherdimension.tumblr.com/

Alternately, one can just break a project down into modules, but then the top-level view becomes the wall of text representation (albeit w/ nice lines or captured into pretty boxes) which one is ostensibly trying to escape.

I'd love to see someone succeed in this, and I've been using:

https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor

quite a bit, and put a bit of money towards:

http://nodezator.com/

I have been very pleased w/ and impressed by:

https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor

and really want to look deeper into it to see if it could be forked to create a version which creates Python code.

Yes.

OpenSCAD Graph Editor is done with an earlier version and runs on Mac OS, Windows, and Linux:

https://github.com/derkork/openscad-graph-editor