pantalaimon VS convos

Well, if you want end-to-end encryption, then obviously that's going to be hard to write from scratch(!) - especially if you want it to be secure. However, we make it trivial to get up and running by piping your client through a proxy like Pantalaimon (https://github.com/matrix-org/pantalaimon/) which takes your normal traffic and makes it E2EE.

Not sure which "any of the other tablestakes features" you have in mind... obviously if you want loads of features, then you're going to have to write a whole bunch of code to implement them in your client, or build on an existing SDK like matrix-bot-sdk, matrix-rust-sdk, matrix-js-sdk etc. Not sure that's a disadvantage of Matrix though(!)

I've tried to set up some Matrix projects. The Client-Server API is easy to work with, but as soon as encryption is involved, things start getting messy. Many libraries have a hard time working right with E2EE enabled, because suddenly you need to keep track of all manner of things that aren't always documented well.

I tried to hack E2EE in by using Pantalaimon [0] but running that on a server with the necessary management capabilities is very tricky and doesn't do cross signing, so I've come to the conclusion that it's effectively useless for my use cases.

Every now and then I check back on the current state of E2EE in libraries and it does seem to be improving. Hopefully the entire process becomes easier next time I get the time to work on my proof of concept code.

[0]: https://github.com/matrix-org/pantalaimon

It takes a bit more configuration, but possible via pantalaimon

Excellent idea! You'll have a mature, open standard protocol under the hood, with no vendor lock-in, excellent extensibility, and great modern frontends like The Lounge (https://thelounge.chat/) or Convos (https://convos.chat/) to choose from (and you can choose).

And UnrealIRCD still rocks. For a quick-and-dirty setup I've deploy ng-ircd but Unreal has always been my go-to for anything serious. If nothing else it can be useful as a backup or internal platform during the rare events that Slack or Discord are having an incident. The common complaint is a lack of channel back-log but it can be front-ended with TheLounge [1] or Convos [2]. I personally prefer to handle that with gnu screen or tmux and WeeChat [3].

[1] - https://github.com/thelounge

[2] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/

[3] - https://weechat.org/

For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine.

Notably missing is voice chat. I use the Mumble client [5] with the Murmur or uMurmur [6] server which is light-weight enough to run on ones home router. I use it on Alpine Linux, works great. It's not a shiny and attention grabbing as Discord but probably fine for everyone else. For people to create their own voice channels would require the full-blown Murmur server.

[1] - https://github.com/thelounge

[2] - https://thelounge.chat/

[3] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/

[4] - https://convos.chat/

[5] - https://www.mumble.info/

[6] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration

FWIW TheLounge [1] and Convos [2] can front-end an IRC server giving it much of the look of a modern client and also chat persistence when using TheLounge in private mode. The trade-off in my opinion is scalability. With a bog standard IRCD I can handle tens of thousands of clients per node. Adding web persistent chat adds memory usage.

[1] - https://github.com/thelounge https://thelounge.chat/

[2] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ https://convos.chat/

IRC is a mature, extensible, open protocol, with a wide variety of server and client implementations to suit many use cases, servers can be self-hosted and federated, and modern web-based clients like The Lounge or Convos offer a user experience equivalent to Discord, Slack, etc.

Standard IRC with a web interface like The Lounge or Convos

And there are some great web-based clients like the Lounge and Convos that offer an equivalent UX to Discord or Slack, are open-source, self-hostable, and based on a mature, reliable, and extensible open protocol.

Take a look at convos to see if it fits your needs: https://convos.chat/

There are web front-ends to IRC that can mitigate message loss without having to run bouncers. Convos [1] and TheLounge [2] come to mind but there are others [3]

[1] - https://convos.chat/

[2] - https://thelounge.chat/

[3] - https://www.ilmarilauhakangas.fi/irc_technology_news_from_th...