jumprope-rs VS c3c

Thanks for all the work in bootstrapping this part of the ecosystem! I opened an issue[1] on the memory issue for jumprope. It seems to really come down to the large size of skiplist nodes relative to the text.

I did some testing with JumpRopeBuf, but ultimately did not include it because I was comparing things from an "interactive editor" perspective where edits are applied immediately instead of a collaborative/CRDT use case where edits are async. But it did perform very well as you said! I feel like JumpRopeBuf feels similar to a piece table, where edits are stored separately and then joined reading.

[1] https://github.com/josephg/jumprope-rs/issues/5

Every piece of a large program should be tested like this. And if you can, test your whole program like this too. (Doable for most libraries, databases, compilers, etc. This is much harder for graphics engines or UI code.)

I've been doing this for years and I can't remember a single time I set something like this up and didn't find bugs. I'm constantly humbled by how effective fuzzy bois are.

This sounds complex, but code like this will usually be much smaller and easier to maintain than a thorough unit testing suite.

Here's an example from a rope (complex string) library I maintain. The library lets you insert or delete characters in a string at arbitrary locations. The randomizer loop is here[1]. I make Rope and a String, then in a loop make random changes and then call check() to make sure the contents match. And I check and all the expected internal invariants in the rope data structure hold:

[1] https://github.com/josephg/jumprope-rs/blob/ae2a3f3c2bc7fc1f...

When I first ran this test, it found a handful of bugs in my code. I also ran this same code on a few rust rope libraries in cargo, and about half of them fail this test.

Jumprope author here. Thanks for the quick test! I just updated the benchmarks in jumprope/rope_benches to include Crop, and it looks to me like jumprope is about 2x faster than crop:

I’d go further and say that writing most software without fuzz testing is insane. Fuzz testing is one of those things they should teach in school. They’re a super useful technique - up there with TDD and it’s a tragedy they aren’t more wildly used.

Fuzzers are so good because they find so many bugs relative to programmer effort (lines of code). They’re some of the most efficient testing you can do. If I had to choose between a full test suite and a fuzzer, I’d choose the fuzzer.

I use fuzzers whenever I have a self contained “machine” in my code which should have well defined behaviour. For example, a b-tree. I write little custom fuzzers each time. The fuzzing code randomly mutates the data structure and keeps a list of the expected btree content. Then periodically I verify that the list and the btree agree on what should be contained inside the list. In the project I’m working on at the moment, I have about 6 different fuzzers sprinkled throughout my testing code. (Btree fuzzer, rope fuzzer, file serialisation fuzzer, a few crdt fuzzers, and so on).

Writing fuzzers is quite devastating for the ego. Usually the first time I point a fuzzer at my code, even when my code has a lot of tests, the fuzzer throws an assertion failure instantly. “Iteration 2 … the state doesn’t match what was expected”.

Getting a fuzzer running all night without finding any bugs is a balm for the soul.

The code looks like this, if anyone is curious. Here’s a fuzzer for a rope (fancy string) implementation: https://github.com/josephg/jumprope-rs/blob/master/tests/tes...

Yep. A few years ago I implemented a skip list based rope library in C[1], and after learning rust I eventually ported it over[2].

The rust implementation was much less code than the C version. It generated a bigger assembly but it ran 20% faster or so. (I don't know why it ran faster than the C version - this was before the noalias analysis was turned on in the compiler).

Its now about 3x faster than C, thanks to some use of clever layered data structures. I could implement those optimizations in C, but I find rust easier to work with.

C has advantages, but performance is a bad reason to choose C over rust. In my experience, the runtime bounds checks it adds are remarkably cheap from a performance perspective. And its more than offset by the extra optimizations the rust compiler can do thanks to the extra knowledge the compiler has about your program. If my experience is anything to go by, naively porting C programs to rust would result in faster code a lot of the time.

And I find it easier to optimize rust code compared to C code, thanks to generics and the (excellent) crates ecosystem. If I was optimizing for runtime speed, I'd pick rust over C every time.

[1] https://github.com/josephg/librope

[2] https://github.com/josephg/jumprope-rs

Linked lists are also the basis for skip lists - which are awesome. One of the only data structures I know of which needs a random number generator to work correctly. I have a rope implementation that I tidied up over the last few days which uses a skip list. Its several times faster than the next fastest library I know of (ropey). They're both O(log n), but for some reason jumprope (with skip lists) still ended up several times faster than ropey's b-trees.

C3, "The C-like for people who like C" just reached v0.5, marking its feature-stable release: https://c3.handmade.network/blog/p/8824-say_hello_to_c3_0.5

Feature stability ensures that version 0.5 will undergo bug fixes and maintenance separately from the main branch, providing projects with a stable compiler version to work with.

Try it out in the browser https://learn-c3.org

Github: https://github.com/c3lang/c3c

If you appreciate C, then maybe this is a language you'll enjoy. Dive into the documentation at https://c3-lang.org to view examples and read more in depth about the language.

Tuples are being discussed, although I am unsure if it would be sufficiently useful. (Discussion here and here if you want to leave some thoughts)

I've been trying to build c3lang on my local machine. The problem is that it requires static files for both llvm and lld. Now, the static files for llvm have been provided (llvm-static), but not for lld, at least that's what I think. I thought that maybe I've made a mistake somewhere by not search the package thoroughly. I just wanted to know what package will install static files for lld.

So (preferably) have a little look at the language (https://c3-lang.org/) and maybe try it out (https://learn-c3.org/) and then file whatever issue you want: https://github.com/c3lang/c3c/issues/new

Like this: https://github.com/c3lang/c3c

> I wish we had C+: C + a few niceties (and not C ++ everything). There's a whole bunch of newer languages aiming at the space C is sitting in, but with a few additions C could be much more ergonomic without having to invent an entire new language.

I’ve made a pre-processor for C to add some things I miss, although it is currently limited to what can be done without type information and has to keep compatibility with existing C syntax: https://sentido-labs.com/en/library/cedro/202106171400/

There is another language call C3 that “is a C-like language striving to be an evolution of C, rather than a completely new language”: https://github.com/c3lang/c3c

If you have the time, I’d like to hear which things you miss in C. There might be something I did not imagine that could be added to Cedro.

Off the top of my head, cc99 and c3 are two C dialects that both can do this.