umurmur VS conduit

>...its server side is still written on Qt, which requires hundreds of megabytes of additional libraries to build it up.

See:

https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur

I've tried to make this argument in the past and gained no traction. What I did instead was to create self hosted chat things as a fallback for the times when Discord or Slack have a green status page but their applications fail to operate. Even light-weight daemons like uMurmur [1] or devzat ssh-chat can be handy in a time of need if a quorum know to fall back to it. Self hosted tools are also handy when one wants to share links or text that should not be on 3rd party sites forever and for eternity

[1] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration

[2] - https://github.com/quackduck/devzat

Adding a more private self hosted option, there is uMurmur [1] which is light-weight enough to run on a Linux router. One of the mobile apps that works with it is Mumla.

There is of course the full blown Murmur [2] install that works a little more like Discord in that people can create channels and there is a permission system.

[1] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration

[2] - https://wiki.mumble.info/wiki/Main_Page

For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine.

Notably missing is voice chat. I use the Mumble client [5] with the Murmur or uMurmur [6] server which is light-weight enough to run on ones home router. I use it on Alpine Linux, works great. It's not a shiny and attention grabbing as Discord but probably fine for everyone else. For people to create their own voice channels would require the full-blown Murmur server.

[1] - https://github.com/thelounge

[2] - https://thelounge.chat/

[3] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/

[4] - https://convos.chat/

[5] - https://www.mumble.info/

[6] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration

I suppose people should decide for themselves if they take the word of a centralized service. Convenience is a factor after all.

For those that have small circles of friends they wish to chat with and minimize the number of ISP's their traffic traverses, I would suggest tinkering around with uMurmur [1] There are pre-built packages in several operating systems package managers. The configuration is dirt simple [2] and the daemon is very light weight, designed to run on home routers. Use certbot to generate LE certs or just use self-signed. One TCP and one UDP port must be forwarded to the daemon, default port being 64738. One can set a server-wide password to keep strangers off of it, or set passwords per-channel.

uMurmur is not E2EE but if it is running on your own router and you are talking with your friends that you know and trust then maybe that is less of an issue. The mobile client is Mumla. Just put in the IP or hostname of the uMurmur instance.

[1] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur

[2] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration

I like https://umurmur.net/ since it can run totally headless at the cost of some of Murmur's features. Mainline Murmur (the Mumble server) requires QT5 and mDNSResponder and various DB drivers and even D-Bus if you look at it crossways

I believe quite a few people use umurmur for stuff like this. Note that it's encrypted and I don't believe that can be shut off, so don't run it over, say, HamWAN, but I don't imagine that was the plan anyway.

I'd like to suggest Conduit. I found it very easy to install and maintain. https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit

> "At least as standard" how?

There are 8 people who vote on changes to the Matrix spec (the Spec Core Team), 7 of which are Element employees (including Matthew, Element's CEO). Element also controls the development of clients and servers used by the large majority of users in the public federation.

> A substantial portion of the IRC comunity is actively hostile to the IRCv3 extensions, and in some cases prefer incompatible implementations of the same functionality; Matrix has nothing like that going on.

But any IRC client will work fine on any IRC server, and they can connect to various servers with different implementations.

On Matrix, clients (generally) can only connect to one homeserver at a time; which forces them to converge on following exactly the same spec. And if your server differs ever so slightly from the other ones in how it implements some parts of the spec (room consensus), then it can be split-brained from the rest of the federation. Instead, changes to the room consensus are done by pushing new room versions, and each server implementation needs to explicitly support it or they can't join it. This means Synapse devs (which are a majority of Element employees) get to decide what room versions can get traction.

It is not uncommon for people in the Matrix community to complain about this and Element keeping specs in limbo, and PRs to the flagship clients being stuck in "design review tar".

> And there seem to be more visibly independent implementations of Matrix than IRCv3.

Clients, maybe, at least in the number of implementation. It's hard to find stats of this, but I feel that >95% of people in the public federation use Element even in tech-y rooms; IRC has a healthier mix of major clients (weechat, irssi, IRCCloud, Hexchat, KiwiIRC, The Lounge each have >5% of desktop/web users). But I admit that's just my very subjective point of view.

In terms of servers, Matrix has three open source ones as far as I know: Synapse (controlled by Element), Dendrite (controlled by Element, and almost on par with Synapse according to https://arewep2pyet.com/ ), and Conduit. Based on https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit/-/milestones/3 , Conduit seems to be far from implementing the spec yet (eg. it doesn't seem to support leaving rooms or respecting history visibility).

> things like: server-side history extensions tended to mess up my client's history implementation (I'd end up with multiple copies of the same messages in my local logs, often with the wrong timestamps)

You can use https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/message-ids to deduplicate them.

> And if you're in a conversation where people are using embedded gifs, then fundamentally you'll always be a second-class citizen if you're trying to participate in that with a client that can't display embedded gifs.

A conversation where people where people are using embedded gifs will exclude me regardless of client, because they are too distracting. At least on IRC I can expect people not to do it too much, and use words or emojis instead of reaction gifs.

> SSO access control; you just can't do that in a nice way if the client doesn't support it

That's a fair point; IRC is made by hobbyists more than companies, so that's not surprising. There is some discussion around it though: https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-ideas/issues/74 and Sourcehut is sponsoring implementation (https://emersion.fr/blog/2022/irc-and-oauth2/).

To start, this will be strictly Non-Federated. Just a few friends will be using this. Here: https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit/-/blob/next/DEPLOY.md is the documentation I am following. It tells me I must "use my server name", but what is this exactly? What do I put in there? Do I have to go out and buy a domain?

Either Tinode (https://github.com/tinode/chat) or Matrix Protocol (https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit)

Matrix Protocol: Fractal (Client), Conduit (Server)

If self-hosting is an option then I'd say Matrix, you can try Conduit (server) and Elements(client). To simplify deployment you can refer to this repo.

You can babble on and on about how its not how you do it, no one needs it, etc... But its a demonstrable need in this space and its caused me great pain trying to write applications that would be used by such people. It's even bit Conduit to the point they have 5+ DB backends coded in now that the user can choose between based on their local system setups.

Give Conduit a try. It uses way less memory than Synapse. It is still in early stages but works great. I have been running one on a Pi4 for like a year, going great so far.

There's a Rust implementation of a Matrix server that uses sled: https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit/