security-research VS superhighway84

> Alright, let's take a step back. First, I am not a mobile developer.

I think you're whichever kind of developer your current position requires. You've been talking about Android non-stop throughout this conversation, and conversations you've had with others on this website [1]. When you were lambasting me about my perceived knowledge of mobile development you were touting your Android knowledge. Now that I've proven Android is actually one of the primary tools Google uses to promote Chrome (and you admitted you don't know much about iOS) you want to distance yourself from mobile development altogether.

> Other examples include whatever iOS does (which I don't know), containers (docker and the likes), VMs, and everything in-between (like what snap or flatpak use).

We're not discussing theoretical means with which you could sandbox an application, we're talking about how apps are actually used in reality. If you need to fire up a virtual machine every time you use your favorite desktop apps, then you're only proving my point that they're not inherently very secure. Not to mention, the average user probably has no idea what Docker or a virtual machine even is. Like I said in my original response, lots of things are possible in theory, but in practice web browsers are much better at sandboxing apps than desktop operating systems (and even better than mobile operating systems).

> If anything, modern browsers are so complex (and getting worse with time) that the attack surface is big

Ironically, a lot of that complexity arises from the web's insistence on security. V8 is complex because it has so many safeguards in place to sandbox JavaScript, and that sandboxing is taken very seriously. There's a reward anywhere from 10,000 to 150,000 USD if you can escape the sandbox [2][3]. Browsers are inherently more secure than desktop apps because they limit access to the underlying platform. Someone developing malware as a web app has to first escape the browser sandbox, just to gain the privileges that a desktop app has natively. If it helps, you can think of every desktop app as a webapp which has already escaped the browser.

> Moreover, Web UIs bring their own class of issues that don't really apply to native apps.

No, web developers have just spent so much time thinking about security, that native app developers haven't even realized these security issues are relevant yet. It took years for Apple and Google to come to the brilliant conclusion that they should notify users when an app is reading from the clipboard, something which at the time was considered just a Browser "class of issue". Maybe in 2034 they'll figure this out for desktop apps.

> But CORS is really a browser thing, I don't think it really makes sense to compare it to anything outside the "webview world".

It makes sense to compare it to things outside of the browser because it protects users and servers. You seem to want to disqualify any point I make that you can't disprove. If you don't think web technology is comparable to anything outside the browser, then what are we even arguing about? This whole discussion has been about comparing the security of web apps to non-web apps.

> If security is your concern (and you seem to insist that it is), then webapps are really not better than the alternatives. Actually, the Apple Store and the Play Store (to give an example in the mobile world) allow Apple and Google to somehow monitor the apps that users install, which is most certainly more secure than a model where anyone can load any webapp from any website.

Apple and Google have to monitor which apps make it to their app stores, BECAUSE apps are so much more prone to security problems. You once again have it completely backwards. No one has to gatekeep websites because browsers are so much better at sandboxing applications. And allow me to remind you that admitted you have no idea how iOS sandboxing works, so you can't really be confident about this stance even if it did make sense.

And now you're arguing in favor of the app store duopoly which contradicts your point about software diversity. You can't have it both ways. You're trying to hold on to two contradictory points at the same time: you don't like the supposed lack of Browser diversity (which is why you seem to detest Chromium), but you like the supposed security guarantees of the mobile app store duopoly, which is even less diverse.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38919389

[2] https://github.com/google/security-research/blob/master/v8ct...

[3] https://bughunters.google.com/about/rules/5745167867576320/c...

This research is also available in text form.

But both Nebula and tinc max out at around 1 Gbit/s on my Hetzner servers, thus not using most of my 10 Gbit/s connectivity. This is because they cap out at 100% of 1 CPU. The Nebula issue about that was closed due to "inactivity" [2].

I also observed that when Nebula operates at 100% CPU usage, you get lots of package loss. This causes software that expects reasonable timings on ~0.2ms links to fail (e.g. consensus software like Consul, or Ceph). This in turn led to flakiness / intermittent outages.

I had to resolve to move the big data pushing softwares like Ceph outside of the VPN to get 10 Gbit/s speed for those, and to avoid downtimes due to the packet loss.

Such software like Ceph has its own encryption, but I don't trust it, and that mistrust was recently proven right again [3].

So I'm currently looking to move the Ceph into WireGuard.

Summary: For small-data use, tinc and Nebula are fine, but if you start to push real data, they break.

[1]: https://github.com/gsliepen/tinc/issues/218

[2]: https://github.com/slackhq/nebula/issues/637

[3]: https://github.com/google/security-research/security/advisor...

You can run the PoC if you want: https://github.com/google/security-research/tree/master/pocs...

* Visual Studio Code had a Remote Code Execution vulnerability triggered by a simple link https://github.com/google/security-research/security/advisor...

https://github.com/gravitl/netmaker

Honorable mention:

SuperHighway84 - more of a Usenet-inspired darknet, but I love the concept + the author's personal website:

https://github.com/mrusme/superhighway84

While I do like the idea behind a P2P E2EE chat, I believe that unless you're willing to invest heavily into OrbitDB and IPFS, this project will stay niche at best.

The performance issues that come along with running OrbitDB/IPFS on a machine, let alone a mobile device, are still significant unfortunately. Adding Electron on top of what is already a heavy-weight application is probably going to make people's devices go brrrrr all the time. Not only that, but I would argue that for instant communication this stack might not be the best idea in terms of performance in first place.

Besides, the way IPFS has been (and still keeps) changing their dozens of libraries doesn't make development particularly smooth either. OrbitDB is always behind the latest IPFS version due to all these changes that are being introduced. Hence unless you're planning to allocate developer time on these two things as well, my guess is that you probably won't have too much fun with your back-end.

The integration with Tor is another thing that will likely be a time drain for developers, as other people here already pointed out, and that will lead to even more performance issues down the line.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the idea behind this project. However, I feel like the aspirations are unrealisticly high and the actual outcome might be realtively frustrating for the average end-user. Having that said, I would love my gut feeling to be proven wrong!

Disclaimer: I'm the developer of Superhighway84 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/InterPlanetary_File_System#App..., https://github.com/mrusme/superhighway84), a USENET-inspired, uncensorable, decentralized internet discussion system running on IPFS & OrbitDB.

Someone created a Usenet-like thing on IPFS. https://github.com/mrusme/superhighway84

It's kind of dead. IIRC the dev put that on the back burner in favor of a new BBS-like app. https://github.com/mrusme/neonmodem

If anybody wanted to, anybody could start a RLM SuperHighway84 where we could just talk about RLM stuff all day.

SuperHighway84 - Is this handy for organization? I like the usenet-style where it sorts itself if people use proper newsgroup names. If people used a 'youtube.channelname' format at least people could maybe scroll down to channels/videos people are talking about.

In my mind something like superhighway84 would be a better platform, then it's automatically organizing itself to some degree if people post in appropriate newsgroups. People looking for lost youtubers could post in youtube.channelName. That person looking for old VCDs & screeners could post in vcds.screeners.

SuperHighway84 is like a usenet style board where people can create whatever newsgroups they want. Anybody could start a 'Datahoarder' highway.

I like the idea of something like SuperHighway84 for talking about our collections. We could make one called YoutubeGraveyard or something. There's also r/DHExchange

Have you heard of SuperHighway84?