sciter-js-sdk VS import-maps

- https://gitlab.com/sciter-engine/sciter-js-sdk/-/tree/main/b... - Skia backend.

You can load in usciter this document:

https://gitlab.com/sciter-engine/sciter-js-sdk/-/blob/main/s...

It shows pretty large colorized texts so you can estimate how Direct2D and Skia handle GPU accelerated text rendering. For these two binaries the difference is only in graphics used - Direct2D and Skia.

Agree about virtualization in principle. Not that nightmarish though.

My Sciter supports built-in virtualization out of the box. But I shall admit that this is second approach to the problem.

Currently Sciter's behavior:virtual-list supports as fixed-height items (that's easy) as variable-height items like messages [1] in chats.

API is relatively simple [2]: single event "contentrequired" that virtual-list sends to JS. In response JS shall either append or prepend requested number of DOM elements to the container (a.k.a. sliding window scroller). Example, grid showing 20000 records: https://gitlab.com/sciter-engine/sciter-js-sdk/-/blob/main/s...

[1] https://sciter.com/behaviorvirtual-list-for-sciter-and-scite...

Thank you for your explanation. As for Electron alternatives, Sciter is much more lightweight, supports Vue and includes a native webview. Anyway, good luck with your project!

> we have a number of other libs to integrate, some of which add their own rendering (which requires access to e.g. a Vulkan context, not merely HTML/CSS or other high-level UI elements)…

I have a customer that is doing something close: it is a 3D CAD alike app where they have Vulkan rendering 3D scene with Sciter UI on top of that - rendering chrome UI around that 3D and on the same Vulkan surface.

Sciter API supports rendering in windowless mode (https://gitlab.com/sciter-engine/sciter-js-sdk/-/tree/main/d...) where app supplies OpenGL, Vulkan or DirectX context to render on.

> Sorry, but I'll have to pass.

Understood. Sometimes people need not just to get job done but also "OS" label on it.

Attempt to combine all these definition in single language is doomed to fail. If in doubts then look at WPF.

3. Notes on language-behind-UI...

If to consider #2 then such simple thing as JavaScript language and VM are quite adequate to the task. Language-behind-UI do not need to be that performant, but it must be flexible. I may express un-popular opinion but language-behind-UI should be typeless.

Simply put: don't do ray tracing in language-behind-UI. But! Such a language shall have simple mechanism of adding high performant functions. There are good languages that are specifically designed for performance: C, C++, D, Rust, Zig, WebAssembly, etc. You just need convenient mechanism to expose those functions to runtime of language-behind-UI. Like here: https://gitlab.com/sciter-engine/sciter-js-sdk/-/blob/main/d...

You need JITs, compilation, fat VMs and runtimes, strong types only if your language is the only mean to define algorithms in whole application. But expect that your code will always be sub-optimal - neither enough performant nor super flexible.

4. Conclusion

Flutter should be something Sciter-alike :) - use [X]HTML/JSX, CSS and some already well known language-behind-UI. JavaScript is the natural choice. If needed you should be able to use native UI components - like in Sciter you can use existing HWND based and windowless native components inside your UI. It may not follow Web UI model on 100% (that's impossible) but to be conceptually close so developers can reuse their skills. Web UI model is conceptually close to Mobile one - all application UI is constrained inside single window.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned it but I've been using SciterJS (website) for my most recent project. I wouldn't ever claim it's the best UI framework out there, but it's lightweight and I've never felt so productive - I've rapidly developed my UI and integrated it with my native C++ far faster than I thought possible. I will note that it is far, far cheaper and has so many more features than Ultralight does.

Only when code tries to access props/methods of the loaded object it gets fetched from disk, its __proto__ is set to particular class, etc.

More on this architecture: https://gitlab.com/sciter-engine/sciter-js-sdk/-/blob/main/d...

Patched QuickJS with storage support is here: https://gitlab.com/c-smile/quickjspp - it uses DyBase of Konstantin Knizhnik as a storage.

More on i18n support in Sciter.

Sciter got native (built-in) Signal implementation made after PReact's Signals;

Long time huge fan of JS. I appreciate your calling out the multi-paradigm aspect; having these first class functions & prototype based inheritance has been so flexible.

TC39 has done a great job shaping the language over the years. New capabilities are usually well thought out & integrate well. Async await has been amazing.

The one major miss that makes me so sad and frustrated is modules; js has gotten better everywhere except it's near requirement for build tooling. Being able to throw some scripts on a page and go is still an unparalleled experience in the world, is so direct & tactile an experience. EcmaScript Modules was supposed to improve things, help get us back, but imports using url specifiers made the whole thing non-modular, was a miss. We're still tangled & torn. Import-maps has finally fixed but it's no where near as straightforward, and it still doesn't work in workers, which leaves us infuriatingly shirt of where the past was. https://github.com/WICG/import-maps/issues/2

makes sure your app is getting the download it expects. Adoption is probably pretty minimal though. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Security/Subres...

I think the big thing making this unlikely though is that very few folks use cdns these days. We designed ESM as a module system for the language, but then took a good fraction of a decade to build import-maps, to let us actually use modules in a modular way. Good news, we can finally use modules modularly! https://caniuse.com/import-maps

Bad news? Oh import-maps only works for the simplest case. Doesn't work in webworkers/service workers. https://github.com/WICG/import-maps/issues/2

The point is that single page apps almost always are bundled together, as using CDNs hasn't even been technically possible.

Also, CDNs are kind of somewhat pointless, now that http caches are partitioned by origin (for security reasons). They might have better anycast infrastructure to get the content out faster, but without the caching there's no inherent advantage. The user will download the same jquery file again in each site they go to, no already having it cached anymore. Bah humbug!

https://github.com/WICG/import-maps/issues/2

Bare specifiers has been the tragedy of ESM. Nice module syntax... that is utterly u deoyable & which has had to have awful de-modularizing specifiers hard-coded into each file to make it work. Abominable sin to introduce "modules" to JS/es2015 then spend a decade dragging everyone along with no story for how to have modular modules.

Import-maps are like "here" to fix this on the web... finally... except they only are shipping to the happiest sunniest easiest case, with Web Workers being totally shit out of luck in spite of some very simple straightforward suggested paths forward. https://github.com/WICG/import-maps/issues/2

I think Deno is making pretty good tradeoffs along the way here. This looks like package.json at surface level, but there is a nightmare of complexity under the surface. Typescript, ESM, cjs all have various pressures they create & in Node it's just incredibly tight & tense dealing with packaging, where-as Deno's happy path of Typescript first does not slowly tatters one over time. It really has been super pleasant being free of the previous world, and having something much more web-platform centric, more intented, with less assembly & less building, and more doing the actual coding.

I really hope import-maps eventually get broader support. Maybe this long-dwelling webworker issue should be brought up with WinterCG.

Import maps proposal

The concept of Import Maps was born in 2018 and made its long way until it was declared a new web standard implemented by Chrome in 2021 and some other browsers.

For package managers, you can use something like import maps to let the user specify which path points to what package, and resolve it properly.

Huh. I was about to complain that this breaks with web standards, but apparently it's being proposed as a standard feature: https://github.com/WICG/import-maps

Interesting!