ron
dhall-lang
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ron | dhall-lang | |
---|---|---|
24 | 113 | |
3,128 | 4,133 | |
2.5% | 0.5% | |
7.6 | 6.0 | |
17 days ago | about 2 months ago | |
Rust | Dhall | |
Apache License 2.0 | BSD 3-clause "New" or "Revised" License |
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ron
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XML is better than YAML
Whenever this kind of arguments come up, I am sad that RON (https://github.com/ron-rs/ron) is not better known. To me it feels like a cleaner and better JSON.
In any case, my little experience with it had made me hate YAML. Generally speaking, I have come to dislike any language with significant whitespace other than Haskell.
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What config format do you prefer?
Part of the reason why I migrated away from RON in system76-scheduler is because I needed to rely on the 253-untagged-enums branch from https://github.com/MomoLangenstein/ron. Which still isn't resolved today: https://github.com/ron-rs/ron/pull/451.
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Ron: Rusty Object Notation
Serde is strongly, strictly typed: you have to specify what type you want to decode to. It’s nothing like Python’s Pickle protocol.
See, for example, https://github.com/ron-rs/ron/blob/484fcab0686dfd18c7e29b6c1..., where it (in a type-inferency way) says “parse as Config”.
- JSON vs. XML with Douglas Crockford
- Ron – Rusty Object Notation
- They're rebuilding the Death Star of complexity
dhall-lang
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Apple releases Pkl – onfiguration as code language
Fail to see how this is any different than Dhall (https://dhall-lang.org/) other than it produces plists too.
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Pkl, a Programming Language for Configuration
Kubernetes config is a decent example. I had ChatGPT generate a representative silly example -- the content doesn't matter so much as the structure:
https://gist.github.com/cstrahan/528b00cd5c3a22e3d8f057bb1a7...
Now consider 100s (if not 1000s) of such files.
I haven't given Pkl an in depth look yet, but I can say that the Industry Standard™ of "simple YAML" + string substitution (with delicate, error prone indentation -- since YAML is indentation sensitive) is easily beat by any of:
- https://jsonnet.org/
- https://nickel-lang.org/
- https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/language/index.html
- https://dhall-lang.org/
- (insert many more here, probably including Pkl)
- Why the fuck are we templating YAML? (2019)
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Is Htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?
There are underpowered languages / tools, that can only solve a problem for which they are intended poorly. But not all limited tools are like that.
Say, eBPF is prominently not Turing-complete, which allows to guarantee that a eBPF program terminates, and even how soon. Still eBPF is hugely useful in its area.
Or, say, regular expressions are limited to regular languages; in particular, they famously [1] cannot process recursive structures, like trees. Still tools like grep / ag / rg are mightily useful.
Yes, I agree that YAML is underpowered for proper k8s configuration! But it's also too powerful for its own good in other aspects [2]. I wish Google used Dhall [3] or their own purely functional config language (FCL? I already forgot the name) instead of YAML; sadly, they did not.
[1]: https://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454/223424
[2]: https://ruudvanasseldonk.com/2023/01/11/the-yaml-document-fr...
[3]: https://dhall-lang.org/
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10 Ways for Kubernetes Declarative Configuration Management
Dhall: Dhall is a programmable configuration language that combines features like JSON, functions, types, and import capabilities. Its style leans towards functional programming, so if you're familiar with functional-style languages such as Haskell, you might find Dhall to be quite intuitive.
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Berry is a ultra-lightweight dynamically typed embedded scripting language
I've been thinking along these lines but more 'strongly validated' than statically typed in the sense that you'd be better off being able to load the entire config and then produce a list of problems (and should be able to offer good editor support if done correctly).
Though https://dhall-lang.org/ demonstrates that you can statically type quite a lot of configuration to great advantage, which appears to be programmatically embeddable in multiple languages per https://docs.dhall-lang.org/howtos/How-to-integrate-Dhall.ht...
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What Is the Point of Decidability
> Where practical is in the sense of an engineer (or in their terms, a CS practitioner),
Configuration processing. E.g. I'd like my yamls to be decidable, though I'd settle for guaranteed to halt[1].
[1] https://dhall-lang.org/
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What Is Wrong with TOML?
Maybe you'd like jsonnet: https://jsonnet.org/
I find it particularly useful for configurations that often have repeated boilerplate, like ansible playbooks or deploying a bunch of "similar-but" services to kubernetes (with https://tanka.dev).
Dhall is also quite interesting, with some tradeoffs: https://dhall-lang.org/
A few years ago I did a small comparison by re-implementing one of my simpler ansible playbooks: https://github.com/retzkek/ansible-dhall-jsonnet
- Show HN: FlakeHub – Discover and publish Nix flakes
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Home Blog Better configuration languages – A talk about Dhall [video]
And to checkout Dhall: https://dhall-lang.org/
What are some alternatives?
toml.io - Source Code for toml.io
cue - CUE has moved to https://github.com/cue-lang/cue
json5 - JSON5 — JSON for Humans
jsonnet - Jsonnet - The data templating language
kdl - the kdl document language specifications
cue - The home of the CUE language! Validate and define text-based and dynamic configuration
minimal-yaml - A minimalist, zero-copy parser for a strict subset of the Yaml specification.
terraform - Terraform enables you to safely and predictably create, change, and improve infrastructure. It is a source-available tool that codifies APIs into declarative configuration files that can be shared amongst team members, treated as code, edited, reviewed, and versioned.
yaml-reference-parser
jsonlogic - Go Lang implementation of JsonLogic
typescript-json-schema - Generate json-schema from your Typescript sources
nix-gui - Use NixOS Without Coding