pgfe VS factor

I like working in C++, after a decade of working in Java, Python, Javascript and Clojure, I find working in C++ (which I learned before these other languages) to be quite fun and pleasant, at least with relatively modern C++.

I've been, on and off, working on a little toy game engine, for a few years. Its a mix of keeping up with C++ advancements, learning various concepts like physically based rendering, and just the fun of crafting a big project, with no constraints other than my time and ability, no deadlines, no expectation of releasing anything. Its cathartic and enjoyable. I really do enjoy it.

Last September, I got frustrated with something I was working on in a more serious capacity. It was some server software, it responded to HTTP requests, it accessed third party services over HTTP and Websockets, it talked to a Postgres database. Overall it was an event driven system that transformed data and generated actions that would be applied by talking to third party services. The "real" version was written in Clojure and it worked pretty well. I really like Clojure, so all good.

But because I was frustrated with some things about how it ran and the resources it took up, I wondered what it would be like if I developed a little lean-and-mean version in C++. So I gave it a try as a side project for a few weeks. I used doctest[1] for testing, immer[2] for Clojure-like immutable data structures, [3] lager for Elm-like application state and logic management, Crow[4] for my HTTP server, ASIO[5] and websocketpp[6] for Websockets, cpp-httplib[7] as a HTTP client and PGFE[8] for Postgres, amongst some other little utility libraries. I also wrote it in a Literate Programming style using Entangled[9], which helped me keep everything well documented and explained.

For the most part, it worked pretty well. Using immer and lager helped keep the logic safe and to the point. The application started and ran very quickly and used very little cpu or memory. However, as the complexity grew, especially when using template heavy libraries like lager, or dealing with complex things like ASIO, it became very frustrating to deal with errors. Template errors even on clang became incomprehensible and segmentation faults when something wasn't quite right became pretty hard to diagnose. I had neither of these problems working on my game engine, but both became issues on this experiment. After a few weeks, I gave up on it. I do think I could have made it work and definitely could go back and simplify some of the decisions I made to make it more manageable, but ultimately, it was more work than I had free time to dedicate to it.

So my experience was that, yes, you can write high level application logic for HTTP web backends in C++. You can even use tools like immer or lager to make it feel very functional-programming in style and make the application logic really clean. Its not hard to make it run efficiently both in terms of running time and memory usage, certainly when comparing to Clojure or Python. However, I found that over all, it just wasn't as easy or productive as either of those languages and I spent more time fighting the language deficiencies, even with modern C++, than I do when using Clojure or Python.

I think I would think very long and hard before seriously considering writing a web backend in C++. If I had the time, I'd love to retry the experiment but using Rust, to see how it compares.

[1] https://github.com/doctest/doctest

[2] https://github.com/arximboldi/immer

[3] https://github.com/arximboldi/lager

[4] https://github.com/CrowCpp/crow

[5] https://think-async.com/Asio/

[6] https://www.zaphoyd.com/projects/websocketpp/

[7] https://github.com/yhirose/cpp-httplib

[8] https://github.com/dmitigr/pgfe

[9] https://entangled.github.io/

My impression so far is (in general), Forth are practically limited to doing embedded/microcontroller development.

For us, web/mobile/desktop app devs, beside:

- 8th (https://8th-dev.com)

- Factor (https://factorcode.org)

Any suggestion which implementation we should look for?

Factor is also very much worth a look. Forth-style syntax, but with many of the ideas from CL and Smalltalk as well. In fact as a CL fan, I was very impressed by it. It's also quite "batteries included" a la Python.

Otherwise, and more seriously, I'm not completely sure variables are needed. Factor is quite usable (it's my favorite go-to language if I quickly need to script something), and mostly doesn't have them.

There's a note on the page from 2022-08-19, that a lot has been added to it. It also links to the github page[1] for the up-to-date changes.

I am a Lisp, April, APL/J/BQE, and Forth[2] aficionado. I did some file munging programs in Factor back in 2012 at my job to sort through theater attendance logs in Word to compile statistics.

[1] https://github.com/remko/waforth

[2] https://factorcode.org/

Is there any "battery-included" ANS Forth (more or less like Python/Go) which provides access to concurrency, networking, database, GUI, etc?

Not an embedded device programmer, but mostly deals with frontend apps, and occasionally backend, so those are very relevant to me.

Or perhaps use "non-traditional" Forths like 8th (https://8th-dev.com) or Factor (https://factorcode.org)?

Here's my day two solution using Factor