paip-lisp VS Fennel

Have you seen https://stevelosh.com/blog/2018/08/a-road-to-common-lisp/ ? "Kludges" everywhere is applicable. On the other hand, having a function like "row-major-aref" that allows accessing any multi-dimensional array as if it were one dimensional is "sweeter than the honeycomb".

I still think CL code can be beautiful. Norvig's in PAIP https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp is nice.

As for the inside-out remark, while technically you do it, you don't have to, and it's very convenient to not do. Clojure has its semi-famous arrow macro that lets you write things in a more sequential style, it exists in CL too, and there's always the venerable let* binding. e.g. 3 options:

    (loop (print (eval (read))))

PAIP by Peter Norvig, Chapter 23, Compiling Lisp

https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/main/docs/chapter23...

Emacs is so much more than a text editor! But I need to stay on topic...

I believe your assessment of LISP (and therefore of MacArthy)'s impact on AI to be unfair. Just a few days ago https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp was discussed on this site, for example.

Sounds like a great project idea to make a toy demo of this direction you'd like to see. Maybe comparable to https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/main/docs/chapter15... and https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/main/docs/chapter8.... which are a few hundred lines of Lisp each, but do enough to be interesting.

You could look into Paradigms of AI Programming by Peter Norvig which might interest you regardless of Lisp content.

Lisp has great power, examine PAIP, part II chapters 7 and 8.

A computer running Prolog reasons, and that only requires a couple of pages of code. So it seems feasible that the network could have learned some ability to reason within its network.

IMHO it's because lisp shines to manipulate symbols whereas the current AI trend is crunching matrices.

When AI was about building grammars, trees, developing expert systems builds rules etc. symbol manipulation was king. Look at PAIP for some examples: https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp

This paradigm has changed.

Origen: Conversación con Bing, 4/4/2023(1) gigamonkey/monkeylib-binary-data - GitHub. https://github.com/gigamonkey/monkeylib-binary-data Con acceso 4/4/2023. (2) paip-lisp/chapter4.md at main · norvig/paip-lisp · GitHub. https://github.com/norvig/paip-lisp/blob/main/docs/chapter4.md Con acceso 4/4/2023. (3) bibliography.md · GitHub. https://gist.github.com/gigamonkey/6151820 Con acceso 4/4/2023.

It's interesting: minimal software is out there, but folks don't tend to choose it. I spend a fair amount of time thinking about how to be conservative in my dependencies, and this encourages a lightweight stack that tends to perform pretty well. These days, I'm favoring tools like Lua, SQLite, Fennel[0], Althttpd[1], Fossil[2], and the Mako Server[3] and find that great, lightweight, stable, efficient software is to be had, for free, but you have to go a bit off the beaten path. This isn't stuff you hear about on Stack Overflow.

In terms of frontend, which the post focuses on (Google Docs and a 30MB doc), I guess I'm conflicted. While I tend to favor native apps + web pages, I'm also a daily Tiddlywiki user, and I really think web apps have their place (heck, one idea I'm working on is a lightweight local server that lets you run web apps like Tiddlywiki). But without a doubt, Tiddlywiki is more resource intensive than Emacs (my go-to for notetaking when I'm not on TW). My tab for a 6MB Tiddlywiki file uses 155MB of RAM, and my (heavily customized, dozens of open buffers) Emacs session uses 88MB. So I do think the author has a good point.

[0]: https://fennel-lang.org/

Eh it's not just luajit and luajit didn't create that problem either. It's a symptom of lua actually succeeding at its design goal of being easily embedded as an extension language. A significant number of incompatible runtimes are more popular than the most recent puc lua, including I believe the older official lua 5.2 released in 2011.

I've done a fair bit of professional lua development and I don't think I've ever written standalone up-to-date puc lua except maybe for some tooling & scripts. It's such a small language and used in such a way that the runtime, distribution method, and available APIs have much more impact on your use (and compatibility) than the version.

Virtually everyone shipping a lua environment is also shipping changes to it that make it a unique target, if only extensions to the standard library. This is why I think syntax layer-only approach like fennel's is the correct choice for improving on lua. It mirrors lua's runtime semantics exactly, and allows you to access the implementation peculiars on their own terms and so can just be run on time of any lua system.

https://fennel-lang.org

Just learned about https://fennel-lang.org/ , could have probably used that as well to avoid Lua.

> I’m positive that there is a Lispy language out there (actually in existence, or the aether) that is appropriate for embedded work, but the constraints of the target make it difficult to envision.

Perhaps Fennel* fits the bill?

* https://fennel-lang.org/

I've also seen neovim plugins written in fennel [0], so if you want something lispy, that's possible now.

[0]: a Lisp that compiles to Lua, https://github.com/bakpakin/Fennel

Something similar: Fennel (https://fennel-lang.org/) is a lisp that compiles into Lua, which nvim can use as plugins, so you can write nvim plugins in a lisp. Aniseed (https://github.com/Olical/aniseed) makes this really easy.

If you want a more FP language on the Lua runtime, you might be interested in Fennel. I wrote a post about adding Fennel compiler to a hslua interpreter a while back, which might be useful for you.