edge VS schema

I totally respect that, and Clojure could invest more in offering frameworks or even no-code platforms or such features, but the truth is it doesn't. The language very much targets the software/information engineer category in my opinion, where by that I mean, the people who are interested in not just the functional requirements, but also the non-functional requirements of performance, scale, architectural runway, future extensibility, operations, maintainability, correctness, re-usability, etc. Especially, Clojure targets those who believe a balance between all these and functional requirements is the holy grail. That's why it won't be the most correct, the most performant, the most productive, but a pragmatic balance of all these in almost equal parts.

Maybe it should also embrace the people looking to get a product out by simply using a framework, and I'd say there's more of that in Clojure today than ever before, but the community I think is more composed of the former people that I describe, which is why you don't see any attempted framework take hold in the community, because most current members are not in the group that "just want to build the product using an established framework".

I think the community has settled, ounce again, on a bit of a balanced approach, Kit (https://github.com/kit-clj/kit) and Edge (https://github.com/juxt/edge) are such hybrids. And some more direct viable frameworks have come along like Biff (https://biffweb.com/) and Fulcro (https://fulcro.fulcrologic.com/).

That said, since the community is more composed of people like me, you don't see a mass move of every Clojurian switching to one of those.

So it creates some questions?

1. Is it a problem that the language targets engineers more interested in a balance between non-functional and functional?

2. Should it be mutually exclusive, or can Clojure equally serve both niche? And if so, should it, why?

3. Is the claim that you can be as productive and it is just as easy to build a product without using a framework in Clojure true? Does this apply to everyone, or only certain personalities or people with certain amount of lower level knowledge?

4. Is Clojure's marketing misleading? Are people looking to just "build the product using an established framework" mislead in thinking Clojure will offer them salvation?

5. Where do most developer fall in, if they don't fall in the category Clojure currently targets, than does that mean Clojure cannot become mainstream? To go mainstream does it mean you have to target frameworks because there are more developers looking to just make a product using a framework?

I don't have answers to these, I'm just trying to define the current state and what the problem with it might be, or if it even is a problem.

Plumatic schema (https://github.com/plumatic/schema) , or friends I might be wrong, but I think schema might make more sense to you coming from the F# world (might be wrong)

This one? I didn't. I hear good things about it, and it's reached a point of maturity, being widely used in production.

Uhhh spec has existed for a long time and before that, schema Nowadays we also have the excellent malli. If his codebase is full of functions where the shape of the data isn’t obvious, isn’t documented and isn’t specified in a specific/schema, that’s on him and his bad coding practices and really no different from passing data in other dynamic languages. A class by itself (without additional effort) only gives you field names.

I don't understand this reputation either. There are very large systems built on other Lisps. For example, Emacs has a massive amount of Elisp. Elisp is much more primitive than Clojure, and traditionally libraries don't use e.g. data schemas [1] as runtime contracts for data.

Obviously, once a system built on top of a dynamic language grows beyond certain threshold, you need to be very disciplined as there are no static types to ensure some degree of correctness.

[1] https://github.com/plumatic/schema

Try to learn a schema library early, like Malli or Prismatic Schema. Do not mistook them as "static-typing" things - it's more for data validation and coercion than "security that things will get the right typing information". The idea to learn them early is how you'll shape future code: validating all "output data" first, them using that data inside your program without "defensive programming" like checking every time if a specific value on a map is nil, etc

In Clojure, declarative data specifications for validation and generation are also very mainstream. Schema was first out the door, Clojure Spec is the most popular library, while malli is gaining popularity fast at the moment.