jco VS WASI

> WASI-Preview2's benefits are not going to be realized in a browser, it's more for the non-web world

The jco project (https://github.com/BytecodeAlliance/jco) provides an implementation of the Component Model and WASI Preview 2 for JavaScript systems. Right now, node.js support is complete, but support for Web embeddings is in progress and coming soon.

> These interpreted languages can run in WASM, but only as language interpreter inside the WASM interpreter - so they work, but they are not efficient.

The Bytecode Alliance has made big improvements to SpiderMonkey performance on WASM/WASI systems, and has work in progress to take advantage of SpiderMonkey's "native" codegen targeting WASM: https://cfallin.org/blog/2023/10/11/spidermonkey-pbl/. We targeted JS first for this work because it is the most popular language with our customers and users, but we expect that this will show the path to adding similar improvements to Ruby, Python, and other languages commonly thought of as "interpreted".

I use @wasmer/wasi for my npm package `trealla` (wasm port of a Prolog interpreter). For the most part I'm pretty happy with it, but the file size is quite large[1] (taking up around half my bundle size), and it looks like @wasmer/sdk is even larger (wasmer.sh downloads a 1.7MB gzipped wasm binary that I assume is the runtime). It's a tough sell to the frontend folks when my package is this big... currently I have my eye on jco[2] which I hope will be much lighter.

[1]: https://bundlephobia.com/package/@wasmer/[email protected]

[2]: https://github.com/bytecodealliance/jco

You literally write the code in the language you prefer, and given the toolchain is in place -and it's in (experimental or preview) place for JavaScript, with teams working on it, like for example JCO- you can compile with Wasm as target.

The roadmap I linked above. The WASI folks have done a poor job at communicating, no doubt, but I'm surprised someone like yourself literally building a competitor spec isn't following what they are doing closely.

Just for you I did some googling: see here[0] for the current status of WASI threads overall, or here[1] and here[2] for what they are up to with WASI in general. In this PR[3] you can see they enabled threads (atomic instructions and shared memory, not thread creation) by default in wasmtime. And in this[4] repository you can see they are actively developing the thread creation API and have it as their #1 priority.

If folks want to use WASIX as a quick and dirty hack to compile existing programs, then by all means, have at it! I can see that being a technical win. Just know that your WASIX program isn't going to run natively in wasmtime (arguably the best WASM runtime today), nor will it run in browsers, because they're not going to expose WASIX - they're going to go with the standards instead. so far you're the only person I've met that thinks exposing POSIX fork() to WASM is a good idea, seemingly because it just lets you build existing apps 'without modification'.

Comical you accuse me of being polarizing, while pushing for your world with two competing WASI standards, two competing thread creation APIs, and a split WASM ecosystem overall.

[0] https://github.com/bytecodealliance/jco/issues/247#issuecomm...

[1] https://bytecodealliance.org/articles/wasmtime-and-cranelift...

[2] https://bytecodealliance.org/articles/webassembly-the-update...

[3] https://github.com/bytecodealliance/wasmtime/pull/7285

[4] https://github.com/WebAssembly/shared-everything-threads

The component model is already shipping in Wasmtime, and will be stable for use in Node.js and in browsers via jco (https://github.com/bytecodealliance/jco) soon. WASI Preview 2 will be done in December or January, giving component model users a stable set of interfaces to use for scheduling, streams, and higher level functionality like stdio, filesystem, sockets, and http on an opt-in basis. You should look at wit-bindgen (https://github.com/bytecodealliance/wit-bindgen) to see some of the languages currently supported, and more that will be mature enough to use very soon (https://github.com/bytecodealliance/componentize-py)

Right now jco will automatically generate the JS glue code which implements a Component Model runtime on top of the JS engine's existing WebAssembly implementation. So, yes, Components are a composition of Wasm Modules and JS code is handling passing values from one module/instance to another. You still get the performance benefits of running computation in Wasm.

One day further down the standardization road, we would like to see Web engines ship a native implementation of the Component Model, which might be able to make certain optimizations that the JS implementation cannot. Until then you can consider jco a polyfill for a native implementation, and it still gives you the power to compose isolated programs written in many languages and run them in many different contexts, including the Web.

(Disclosure: I am co-chair of WASI, Wasmtime maintainer, implemented many parts of WASI/CM)

(As a side note for the JS support — adapting QuickJS has been extremely helpful in getting JS support out; however, we are in the process of rebuilding the JS runtime using SpiderMonkey (with which a few people on the team have significant experience) and JCO (https://github.com/bytecodealliance/jco), and the web platform compatibility makes it a significantly better proposition for things like 3rd party dependencies).

C# is an interesting one — the .NET team at Microsoft (and in particular Steve Sanderson from that team) has been making tremendous progress in ahead-of-time compilation for .NET and generating Wasm and WASI compatible binaries (as opposed to their initial approach on Blazor), and experimenting with that led us to build support for Spin as well.

Finally, we do a lot to support other popular languages and their Wasm support — two examples: Python (https://github.com/bytecodealliance/componentize-py) and Java / TeaVM (https://github.com/fermyon/teavm-wasi), for which we haven't fully integrated Spin support, but we hope to get there soon.

I hope this explains a bit our process on language support, happy to expand on any point here.

That's really useful. This page in particular: https://github.com/bytecodealliance/jco/blob/main/EXAMPLE.md

Being able to run "jco wit cowsay.wasm" to see what interfaces that .wasm file provides solves a problem I've run into a bunch of times in the past.

WASI Co-chair here. Nothing in WASI is "somehow blocked by Google", or indeed blocked by anyone at all. Graphics support in WASI hasn't been developed simply because nobody has put energy into developing graphics support in WASI.

At the end of 2023 we counted around 40 contributors who have been working on WASI specifications and implementations: https://github.com/WebAssembly/meetings/blob/main/wasi/2023/... . That is a great growth for our project from a few years ago when that issue was filed, but as you can see from what people are working on, its all much more foundational pieces than a graphics interface. Also, if you look at who is employing those contributors, its largely vendors who are interested in WASI in the context of serverless. That doesn't mean WASI is limited to only serverless, but that has been the focus from contributors so far.

By rolling out WASI on top of the WASM Component Model we have built a sound foundation for creating WASI proposals that support more problem domains, such as embedded systems (@mc_woods and his colleagues are helping with this), or graphics if someone is interested in putting in the work. Our guide to how to create proposals is found here: https://github.com/WebAssembly/WASI/blob/main/Contributing.m... .

> As I understand it, it's not even really possible today to make WebAssembly do anything meaningful in the browser without trampolining back out to JavaScript anyway, which seems like a remarkable missed opportunity.

That's the underlying messy API it's built on. There are specs to make the API more standardized like https://github.com/WebAssembly/WASI

But overall, yeah, it feels like a shiny new toy everyone is excited about and wants to use. Some toys can be fun to play with, but it doesn't mean we have to rewrite production systems in it. Sometimes, or most of the time, toys don't become useful tools.

Snapshot Preview 1 is the standard all tools are building to right now. The specification is available here: https://github.com/WebAssembly/WASI/blob/main/legacy/preview...

It's pretty unreadable though!

Preview 2 looks like it will be a big change, and is just being finalised at the moment. I'd expect that when preview 2 is available there will be an improvement in the quality of documentation. I'm not sure how long it will take after release for tools to start switching to it. I'd expect Preview 1 will still be the main target at least for the rest of this year.

> Like WTF does this mean? The repo tells me nothing

Directly above the sentence you quoted:

"Interposition in the context of WASI interfaces is the ability for a Webassembly instance to implement a given WASI interface, and for a consumer WebAssembly instance to be able to use this implementation transparently. This can be used to adapt or attenuate the functionality of a WASI API without changing the code using it."

> and I've still yet to see a clear write-up about what WASI is.

In the same document: [0]

> WTF is wit?

The first link in that document ("Starting in Preview2, WASI APIs are defined using the Wit IDL.") is [1].

> I click on "legacy" and I see preview0 and preview1, which are basically unreadable proto-specs.

The README for the legacy directory [2] clearly explains what they are.

> Where's a single well-written WASI spec?

"Development of each API happens in its own repo, which you can access from the proposals list." [3]

> Whatever WASI is doing, I don't like it.

Clearly not - you've gone out of your way to ignore all of the documentation that answers your questions.

> And neither does AssemblyScript team apparently

The AssemblyScript team have a bone to pick with WASI based on their misunderstanding of what WASI is for (it is not intended for use on the web) and WASI's disinterest in supporting UTF-16 strings. You can see for yourself in [4].

[0]: https://github.com/WebAssembly/WASI/tree/main#wasi-high-leve...

The Bytecode Alliance initiated a sub-project called the WebAssembly System Interface (WASI). WASI is an API that allows WebAssembly access to system features such as files, filesystems, Berkeley sockets, clocks, and random numbers. WASI acts as a system-level interface for WebAssembly, so incorporating a runtime into a host environment and building a platform is easier.

We are excited to contribute back to Wasmtime and the component model, as well as to new projects and proposals emerging in this space (such as new Wasm proposals, like WASI Preview 2, wasi-keyvalue, wasi-sql or wasi-cloud).

I've been reading the following repositories.

https://github.com/WebAssembly/WASI/blob/main/Proposals.md