foundationdb VS TablaM

Actually, Apple does this for iCloud! They use FoundationDB[1] to store billions of databases, one for each user (plus shared or global databases).

See: https://read.engineerscodex.com/p/how-apple-built-icloud-to-...

Discussed on HN at the time: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39028672

[1]: https://github.com/apple/foundationdb https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FoundationDB

Is this the language in question? https://github.com/apple/foundationdb/blob/main/flow/README....

> I wondered if perhaps this WASM use case for a cross-language library was already just as possible and ergonomic using language bindings and maybe thats why this use case doesnt seem like a big deal to people.

Yeah that’s the reason. You don’t notice it a lot of the time, but FFIs are everywhere already. The most common foreign function interface is basically the ability to call C code, or have functions made available to C code. C is used because everyone knows it and it’s simple. And most languages either compile to native code (eg rust) - which makes linking to C code easy. Or the runtime is implemented in C or C++ (eg V8, Ruby). In languages like that, the standard library is already basically implemented via a FFI to C/C++ code.

I’ve got an iOS app I’m working on that’s half rust and half swift, with a touch of C in the middle. The bindings work great - the whole thing links together into one binary, even with link time optimizations. But the glue code is gross, and when I want to fiddle with the rust to Swift API I need to change my code in about 4 different places.

Most FFIs are a one to many relationship in that if you write a clean C API, you can probably write bindings in every language. But you don’t actually want to call naked C code from Ruby or Javascript. Good bindings will make you forget everything is done via ffi. Eg numpy. I haven’t looked at the wasm component model proposal - I assume it’s trying to make this process cleaner, which sounds lovely.

I maintain the nodejs bindings for foundationdb. Foundationdb bindings are all done via ffi linking to their C code. And the API is complex, using promises and things. I find it really interesting browsing their official bindings to go, Java, Python and Ruby. Same bindings. Same wrapped api. Same team of authors. Just different languages. And that’s enough to make the wrapper wildly different in every language. From memory the Java ffi wrapper is 4x as much code as it is in Ruby.

https://github.com/apple/foundationdb/tree/main/bindings

Isn’t apple server on C/C++?

They have their own db in that

https://github.com/apple/foundationdb

> Any meaningful technology is open source.

Clearly untrue, however FoundationDB is open source, with a permissive license.

https://github.com/apple/foundationdb

So is much of the operational tooling for it:

https://github.com/FoundationDB/fdb-kubernetes-operator

I don't recall any of those details but the test involved injecting a bogus block device that always returns garbage, and noting that this results in garbage records returned from client queries. And I don't think those kinds of issues have been eradicated, browsing through their github issues there are people trying to recover corrupted clusters. https://github.com/apple/foundationdb/issues/2480

For my current job, I have to install FoundationDB (they have a github repo) as a dependency for the project's code.

To clarify, FoundationDB has some documented multi-region features, but it's not at all clear that anybody who runs it at scale relies on those multi-region features [1]. Even if they do, it's not obvious they run this Fearless DR mode at any appreciable latency.

Geo-replication is an area where Anna really shines, and foundation pays severe costs. All of the concurrency control problems have contention footprints on the order of round-trips. Fully optimistic concurrency control needs to expose backoffs quite a few round-trips to be live. Even pessimistic concurrency control requires some number of round trips, probably at least 1.5 optimally, but in practice in most tuned systems, probably 3. A heck of a lot of use cases make sense at 0 global RTTs and don't at 1+. The ability to tell the database how to manage concurrency, and then providing causal is ultimately the best you can do. That's awesome.

At the end of the day, I have to believe that there's a whole big mess of applications we'll build this, on systems in the portion of the design space Anna is choosing, one day. This is only recently not cutting edge research, but it's definitely still research. We don't know how to model these concepts at a high-level and in a composable way where the masses of software developers can engage with them.

It's interesting to think about how long ago we were graced with BAYOU [2], that thing was ahead of its time. I suspect it's going to take a little while longer before these sorts of techniques make their way into data storage primitives we think of as part of the standard vernacular, but I believe we'll get there eventually.

Databases are fun!

[1] https://github.com/apple/foundationdb/wiki/Multi-Region-Repl...

> Very curious if anyone knows how to pull this off.

I work in this space (small/mid-size).

The good news is that there are several "obvious" ways to pull this off because an ERP is the culmination of everything a company needs and does. So almost anything you can imagine on the software is part of it.

The bad news, and the reason everyone wants a solution, is that is truly a big space, and then you need E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.

---

My take is to start from the bottom, and build a much better version of Access/FoxPro (https://tablam.org).

Any medium/big ERP end being a specialized computing platform that needs:

- A programming language

- A database engine

- An orchestration engine

- ELT engine

- Auth

- UI/Report builders

And to be clear: NONE of the "programming language", "database engine", etc are a good fit today.

NONE.

This is the big thing, This is the reason (from a tech POW only) that most attempts fail.

This is the secret of why Cobol rule(d): Is all of this! but is too old! (also, this is why SQL still is best: Is almost this).

---

So, to pull this off, you need a team that knows what is "missing" from our current tools, makes a well-integrated package, and adds a "user-friendly" interface in a way that is palatable for the kind of user that uses excel (powerfully).

Is not that impossible. FoxPro was the best example of this kind of integrated solution.

P.D: This is my life's dream, to make this truth!

SEEKING VOLUNTEERS: TablaM relational language (https://tablam.org)

TablaM is an in-progress programming language to provide a more ergonomic experience for building data-oriented applications.

This means that where most languages are focused on low-level details or engineering at large, TablaM is tailored with some small & big design decisions to make it enjoyable to write applications for e-commerce, finance, ERPs, and similar.

Cool things:

- TablaM marry the array + relational models. It means we should get very little need for manual loops and all the ops are vectorized.

Yeah, I worked on https://tablam.org and https://spacetimedb.com.

It becomes pretty clear that `order` is a significant property to make useful (and performant!) programs. "Duplicates" is also required to make usefull programs.

One nonobvious reason for this: You wanna report that a `customer` has a duplicated key `1`. If you CAN'T model `[(customer.id = 1), (customer.id = 1)]` then you can't report errors! And `erroneous` data is VITAL to make useful programs because then the only possibility is "perfect" data, and that is not possible!

Another reason is that we want to `count` duplicates, to see `duplicates`, and other NON-obvious at first: "What is a duplicate?". Get fun with floats, Unicode, combining case and non-case sensitive input... and is obvious that for useful programs IS REQUIRED to support bags in an extended version of the relational model.

And yet...

IS very important to remember about `set semantics` and try to adhere to it when makes sense. Your query planner will like it. You "valid" constraints like it. And `unique index` like it. And so on...

Finally, for app development, I will "suggest" everyone use my lang https://tablam.org!

This is moe interesting than it looks, probably because the best part (IMHO) is about the type system, that is what enables the other ideas.

> In Julia, types are first-class and every value has a type

This is what I do from the start in https://tablam.org and only later found that is not common! Is so intuitive this way and simpler to check, by a lot. In fact, I waste so much time adapting type inference algorithms that are hard to translate because for some reason graphs are imposed on trees, types are second-class and live at a distance (and erased) and all is a mess this way.

The relational model already makes this so simple: `project / rename / extend` relational operators cover you.

From this other facilities become possible. Note how in `SQL` you don't have functions as first-class per se, but now try to imagine that a function is a table and suddenly, is much better!

My relational lang (https://tablam.org) that I wish to be a Excel + Access replacement is still half-backed.

I move it slowly in my personal computer but not much in public. Maybe adding another person will help me on that!

> what is a good alternative to Access (or Fox, I add)

Nothing.

Access is(was) in fact a worse alternative to Fox:

- Much worse DB engine, and that is saying a lot (FoxPro db can and get corrupted. A typical functionality that was added to any fox codebase was a utility to fix it)

- MUCH MUCH worse programming language (VB) that is neither good as-is, much less as a data-programing language.

Fox/dbase is the only data-oriented language that was relatively popular and fit for the use-case.

This is by a mile the main point: Is a desert looking for languages that are made for business app/data oriented programing (and much harder looking for something not weird).

The main options: Fox/dBase/Informix(? not remember), kdb+, Cobol, SQL(when extended as store procedure lang with loops and that)

--

This point is big. Having a good form builder (that is already rare) is not enough to be a real contender for this space. You need a language where making queries is truly nice.

In short, you need a language that is `LINQ/Relational` as first-class end-to-end.

- If this lang needs an ORM: FAIL.

- If this lang needs to compose strings to make a query: FAIL.

- If exist "impedance mismatch" between data manipulation/queries and the rest of the lang: FAIL.

- It should also support super-advanced types like date, decimal, currency and ideally dimensional units. Ideally algebraic types as today.

- It should have a version of Rust `serve, Into/From` for easy conversion between data + formats.

- It should look "normal" like python/swift with `LINQ` queries.

This is the lang I trying to build: https://tablam.org

> I asked was about querying data without ever using a SQL language, like tapping directly into the data.

I agree (making https://tablam.org to try a fix & working on https://github.com/clockworklabs/SpacetimeDB in the SQL conformance).

Before I think SQL was bad. *Now I'm certain*. SQL is absurdly massive for things that could have collapse all the features 10x or more.

However, working in an RDBM now I also understand why is not desirable to make "raw" calls to the DB: The engine MUST mediate all the calls to make things works (from query optimization, execution, iteration, lock management, transaction management, etc).

Is incredible how much sophistication is in a simple `SELECT * FROM table`.

What I wish is to build a `Wasm-like` IR so that is what anybody target, and `SQL` is not the mediator.

In my case each lang I have learned (+12) I start coding a mini-ORM. I have done the same so many times, and that is a good way to learn from me. Also, I have to learn Rust building https://tablam.org.

It sounds puzzling, I start learning Rust with https://tablam.org and probably was making my life harder trying to do "advanced" stuff when not have any idea of what I was doing.