element-x-ios VS Killed by Google

Matrix is a protocol, not an app, and it's still evolving rapidly.

Meanwhile, Element as an app is also evolving rapidly too. Totally agreed that the onboarding has been awful in the past, but we're plugging away improving it and trying to make it more glossy and less neckbeardy, as per https://element.io/labs/element-x etc.

The fact is that Discord has raised $1B+ to run a centralised unencrypted comms platform; meanwhile Element is doing something ~10x harder (decentralised & E2EE) with a tiny fraction of the $. It takes longer, but the difference is that Matrix should last indefinitely, whereas Discord will get Eloned sooner or later.

I wouldn't say we've lost yet, but ymmv. I do wish we'd progressed faster though.

Element X is not finished or intended for average users yet, as https://element.io/labs/element-x makes clear. It’s a preview of the future of Element.

Matrix itself is a big messy thing, much like the Web - this is both its power and a potential weakness.

Element X is indeed a fancy new client - but it hasn't hit a 1.0 yet. Think of it a lot like Firefox was pre-1.0; it's unrecognisably faster and better than the previous generation... but not all features are there yet. Meanwhile, there are loads of entirely unrelated independent excellent clients out there too; it's not just about Element v Element X.

> But I wasn't able to set up the encryption with my recovery key, there was only the online validation which I couldn't use because I was on the go and didn't have access to my desktop.

This bug is an accidental thinko however: it's placeholder UI which is about to be replaced by implementing login-via-scanning-QR-code (which is almost there), but obviously that also needs the ability to enter recovery keys too. Eitherway, it's being fixed: https://github.com/element-hq/element-x-ios/issues/2424

> also seems to still lack TOFU for my private server

Yup, sorry, TOFU for TLS isn't implemented yet in EX.

> The same with the homeservers, there's synapse and dendrite is supposed to take over at some point but that point is forever far in the future. And then there's conduit, so which one is it?

Synapse is a stable server where the core team is putting its effort currently. Dendrite is a 2nd gen server from the core team, but is beta and a) ended up being focused on P2P and embedded homeservers and experimental MSCs, b) is starved of resource atm due to funding pressure (c.f. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5BrVVf0B1I&t=316s). Conduit is an independent server implementation in Rust, which is promising but beta.

It's like asking whether you should use Apache httpd or beta versions of nginx or lighttpd in the early days of the Web.

> The strategy doesn't really feel well thought out in that sense.

The strategy at Element (which employs most of the Matrix core team) is pretty clear right now:

1. Improve Synapse as the most mature and stable server implementation (and package it in Element Server Suite for those needing an enterprise Matrix distro: https://element.io/server-suite)

2. Finish implementing sufficient features in Element X that it can replace the old classic Element mobile apps asap - converging on a single Rust codebase, so that bugs & audits & new features can all land in one place.

3. Keep building Element Web/Desktop and Element Call.

...and that's it.

If it seems confusing, that's either because we're in the middle of the Element -> Element X shuffle... or because the nature of Matrix is that there's loads of other independent implementations running around too. But that's what makes it fun, too :)

i’d have been in danger of agreeing a year ago, but thankfully we proved otherwise with Element X: https://element.io/labs/element-x. Bit embarassing that we didn’t get there sooner, but human fallibility and all that.

Yep, a good example is the element X rewrite

They use Jetpack on Android

https://github.com/vector-im/element-x-android

And SwiftUI on iOS

https://github.com/vector-im/element-x-ios

But both use the same underlying Matrix Rust SDK

https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk

So they share the core part of the app between platforms, but everything user facing is native

And the cake under the cherry is… Element X is open-source[1][2]!

I really can't wait for Beeper[3] to rebuild their fork on top of Element X (it's currently based on Element, formerly called Riot). If this happens this will be an absolute game-changer in the messaging ecosystem.

[1] https://github.com/vector-im/element-x-ios

[2] https://github.com/vector-im/element-x-android

[3] https://www.beeper.com/

Yes, eventually. Right now the sliding sync MSC is still in flux (e.g. we just realised today that it's missing an explicit flag to notify once the client has caught up with the server, rather than guessing via heuristics: https://github.com/vector-im/element-x-ios/issues/1269#issue...). As a result, the implementation (which is in golang) is being kept separate from Synapse for now while we iterate on it; plus it's a separate set of folks working on it. This also means that SS can be used with any existing server (dendrite, conduit etc) as needed.

It'll get added natively to Synapse eventually, but it'll likely be quite a way off.

Element X is an entirely new client written in Rust + Swift UI/Jetpack Compose (https://github.com/vector-im/element-x-ios and https://github.com/vector-im/element-x-android) which will eventually replace the legacy Element apps (https://github.com/vector-im/element-ios and https://github.com/vector-im/element-android).

The features already exist serverside; we're just working on getting them out of beta.

Yep, it's definitely been frustrating in the past. The number of iOS Element bugs was overwhelming at times too. It's a lot more stable now, but the bubble layout still isn't the default - I think that's what most people expect from a personal messenger. I'm looking forward to seeing what the Rust rewrite [1] brings for performance/stability.

FluffyChat also has quite nice UX and a bubble layout by default, but threads are still a while off [2]. On iOS it worked flawlessly through the iOS 16 betas while Element had some show stopping bugs, a couple of my friends moved over if they were on the beta.

I haven't had any friends ask me about the verify session buttons. I don't see any prompts on latest iOS Element but it's still too prominent on Element desktop for my liking.

SchildiChat [3] is my daily driver and feels more friendly than Element on desktop (unified DMs & group chats, no verify UX, chat bubbles), but it doesn't have any update mechanism built in, so I'm wary to recommend it to non-technical friends. It was also my goto recommendation on Android before the Element redesign.

I'm confident the ecosystem is moving in the right direction though, and so thankful for the amount of choice.

[1]: https://github.com/vector-im/element-x-ios

iOS is still not great, but they are making a new one.

With Google’s graveyard[1] growing so fast, I’m careful with new Google announcements. An API like this sounds particularly problematic to replace sometime in future.

[1]: https://killedbygoogle.com/

Number 293 of killed things by Google: https://killedbygoogle.com/

> Google is large enough to not care about small opportunities. It ends up focusing on bigger opportunities

that result in shittier products overall. For example, just a few months ago they cut 17 features from Google Assistant because they couldn't monetize them, sorry, because these were "small opportunities": https://techcrunch.com/2024/01/11/google-is-removing-17-unde...

> all are excellent examples of Google's long term commitment to the product and constantly making things better and keeping them relevant for the market.

And here's a long list of excellent examples of Google killing products right and left because small opportunities or something: https://killedbygoogle.com/

And don't get me started on the whole Hangouts/Meet/Alo/Duo/whatever fiasco

> Sure it has shut down many small products but that is because they were unlikely to turn into bigger opportunities.

Translation: because they couldn't find ways to monetize the last cent out of them

>Google operates in China albeit via their HK domain.

The Chinese government has access to the iCloud account of every Chinese Apple user.

>They also had project DragonFly if you remember.

Which never materialized.

>The lesser of two evils is that one company doesn’t try to actively profile me (in order for their ads business to be better) with every piece of data it can find and forces me to share all possible data with them.

Apple does targeted and non targeted advertising as well. Additionally, your carrier has likely sold all of the data they have on you. Apple was also sued for selling user data to ad networks. Odd for a Privacy First company to engage in things like that.

>Google is famously known to kill apps that are good and used by customers: https://killedbygoogle.com/

Google has been around for 26 years I believe. According to that link 60 apps were killed in that timeframe. According to your statement that Google kills an app a month that would leave you 252 apps short. Furthermore, the numbers would indicate that Google has killed 2.3 apps per year or .192 apps per month.

>As for the subpar apps: there is a massive difference between the network traffic when on the Home Screen between iOS and Android.

Not sure how that has anything to do with app quality, but if network traffic is your concern there's probably a lot more an Android user can do than an iOS user tp control or eliminate the traffic.

> This is proved by countless “killed by Google” incidents..

Oh, the Google's Graveyard: https://killedbygoogle.com/

I was already starting to feel a little cornered in the whole Google ecosystem and a bit limited with stuff like backups, vendor lock in, etc. (and you always have the obvious hanging over your head) and ultimately, I think I just find the mental model of a SQL database more intuitive compared to a NoSQL database. So I thought to myself; "the longer I leave it, the harder it'll be to make the switch".