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Are you sure you want Microsoft in particular to step in? https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/39

Indeed, by criteria of community drama, .NET is also too immature for use. See [1], as the conclusion of that.

[1]: https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/40

Saying that outcry was about one tiny decision is like saying WW1 was because an Archduke got assassinated.

Microsoft's handling of .NET 's OSS community has been haphazard at best. Just a week or two prior to the 'dotnet watch' debacle, there were issues and concerns with the .NET Foundation that led to the Executive Director stepping down [0].

I bring this up, because in many cases the perception is that there is -still- lock in, just in a different fashion.

By that, I mean, if you Ask a typical .NET developer what they use, they'll probably say ASPNETCORE, EF Core, maybe you'll hear Hangfire, MediatR, RestSharp, or Dapper.

So, you've got a bunch of .NET devs that -only- know Microsoft technologies for the most part. Yeah there's some other stuff like MongoDb, Kafka, Redis, stuff like that, but It's not very frequent you hear about teams reaching out to other technologies.

It's very rare I hear people bring up Linq2Db, a beautiful* Micro-ORM that is best described as a type-safe, extensible SQL DSL. Or Websharper, a really-freaking-cool library that basically lets you transpile your C#/F# code into Javascript and/or Reactive HTML, complete with seamless server calls if you'd like.

You might run into some interesting things at different places. One shop I was at used MassTransit, which was kinda cool. I've wound up using Akka.NET a few times in the past, which has always been super fun.

The end result of this though, is the -perception- of what .NET Developers are like. And sometimes those perceptions are real. I remember the dev that felt Dapper was some sort of 'black magic' and would stick to writing DataReaders and or datatables by hand, and another that was so against the idea including Non-MS tech in a project that it wound up costing him his job; he insisted there was a way to get EF to do things in a performant way (answer: not sanely, and not easily the way the app was built on an arch level,) and refused to accept a PR that solved the problem with Dapper.

He wound up doing the thing I've seen a -lot- of .NET developers do; fight the Framework.

To be clear here, I'm not referring to the BCL. It's not always perfect (I'd love for an analogue to SSLEngine, please?), but it's -fine-. I'm referring to bits like ASPNETCORE, EFCore, SignalR, and Microsoft.Extensions.(DependencyInjection/Logging) where developers wind up getting in awkward tarpits around some weird edge case because of a business requirement or some other decision that, unfortunately, can't be undone.

Or are just plain 'well, that sounds sensible in theory' like "I would like to update N rows in an new status that are older than 1 month and set to overdue, and not have it be N update statements." Maybe EF does that now, but last I knew the answer was not really.

At my first 'Real' Dev job, we were a .NET shop, that often had to 'fight the framework' (it didn't help that we were on an Oracle Backend, which made -everything- more of a PITA before we discovered Dapper.) When the .NET guys hit one of these roadblocks, it would often take sprint after sprint of fighting to either have no solution, or have a solution that would render the app hard to maintain. The newer teams using Java? They didn't have those problems. We later heard they had 5 different ORM-ish libraries in use over there. At the time, a lot of the .NET devs kinda treated it as a sort of derision. 'hows somebody gonna understand it?'... But the Java teams delivered. It is also worth considering, maybe those were the best libraries to solve the problems that the app in question needed to deal with.

And that's kinda the 'mindset' that is a set of .NET developers that fit the stereotype; if it's not an app that fits their cookie-cutter world, they break down and can't understand it. In other words, they're afraid to step outside the box, which means they're less likely to think outside the box.

The typical 'litmus-test' of this type for me is a sliding scale based on their past/current experience with other languages and willingness to work with them.

* - I do some contribution work to Linq2Db, so my opinion may be a little biased.

[0] - https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/39#

I've heard this so many times within the last 10 years, and it's always after they've done something really stupid. At least in the FOSS realm, regarding microsoft, people are just so naive it's laughable. Like here where everyone is responding by pretty much saying "oh, it seems I've signed my rights away. I sure hope Microsoft doesn't abuse this in the future" ... I stopped feeling bad after reading responses.

Part of the drama: https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/39 Many things before were on twitter.

One of the things that comes to mind here is the fact that the default Python extension for VS Code is, perhaps surprisingly to many, not open source. https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release

While it's possible to fork VS Code, it is not possible to fork VS Code and provide a seamless onramp towards a Python editing experience that is fully open source, because users are used to the nuances of the closed-source Pylance experience in VS Code proper. You could use the minified/compiled Pylance plugin in your fork, but you'd have no way to expand its capabilities to new hooks your fork provides. Microsoft's development process would always be able to move faster than a fork, because it could coordinate VS Code internal API development with its internal Pylance team, and could become incompatible with forks at any time.

It's worth re-reading the quote from J Allard in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis... with this modern example in mind.

(Also worth mentioning https://github.com/detachhead/basedpyright?tab=readme-ov-fil... which is a heroic effort to derisk this, but it's an uphill battle for sure!)

Anyone know how can we fix this issue if we build the vscode locally

Do any of these issue tickets explain the behaviour you're seeing? https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release/issues/4341, https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release/issues/4071

Maybe they "are the same thing" in terms of behavior (I don't know), but "A uses B" doesn't mean that "A is B".

One important difference in this case is that while "Pylance leverages Microsoft's open-source static type checking tool, Pyright" [1], Pylance itself is not open source. In fact, the license [2] restricts you to "use [...] the software only with [...] Microsoft products and services", which means that you are not allowed to use it with a non-Microsoft open source fork of VS Code, for example.

The license terms also say that by accepting the license, you agree that "The software may collect information about you and your use of the software, and send that to Microsoft" and that "You may opt-out of many of these scenarios, but not all".

[1] https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release

[2] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items/ms-python.vscode-...

There's this one: https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release/issues/4174 (rules don't apply properly, and ovverrides don't work even after being set, this is especially for the more generic ones like )

The example is not .NET in general, but that specific event when Microsoft reneged on open development tooling[1]. For some people, that was the moment they stopped trusting "new Microsoft" to keep their word (though for me, it was when the Python language server was replaced with a DRM-locked, LSP-noncompliant one[2] a bit before that; unlike .NET hot reload, they didn't backtrack there). I can think the company makes great open .NET tools and at the same time not trust them to close it down on a whim.

Does anyone know where the open xlang reimplementation of MIDL went[3], by the way? (Unlike 1990s MIDL, you can't reimplement this one from the language grammar in the docs, because there is no language grammar in the docs.)

[1] https://dusted.codes/can-we-trust-microsoft-with-open-source and links there

[2] https://github.com/microsoft/pylance-release/issues

[3] https://github.com/microsoft/xlang/pull/529