container2wasm VS greenfield

The existence of vscode.dev always makes me wonder why Microsoft never released an iOS version of VSCode to get more users into its ecosystem. Sure, it's almost as locked down as the web environment, but there's a lot of space in that "almost" - you could do all sorts of things like let users run their code, or complex extensions, in containers in a web view using https://github.com/ktock/container2wasm or similar.

Unfortunately cosmopolitan wouldn't work for dockerc. Cosmopolitan works as long as you only use it but container runtimes require additional features. Also containers contain arbitrary executables so not sure how that would work either...

As for WASM, this is already possible using container2wasm[0] and wasmer[1]'s ability to generate static binaries.

[0]: https://github.com/ktock/container2wasm

[1]: https://wasmer.io/

Really impressed by the depth and breadth of this project, well done!

A particularly interesting part is the socket layer inside the browser. Other people solving this problem have previously used a proxy to a server that does the real socket implementation. This means you can't have a "browser-only" solution.

The author has solved this (for HTTP/S only) by proxying HTTP requests and then re-creating them as fetch requests (details here: https://github.com/ktock/container2wasm/tree/main/examples/n...). I'm very interested in using this approach for my own project Runno (https://runno.dev).

There's Greenfield, an HTML5 Wayland compositor. https://github.com/udevbe/greenfield

There's some fancy bridging modes to run apps in a browser, but the author has also been working on a way to make wasm Wayland apps run directly in the browser tol.

Do any GUI frameworks support WASM?

I've been looking for a way to run GUI applications remotely for a while, specifically on a wlroots compositor. Projects like this (maybe one day) and https://github.com/udevbe/greenfield are interesting since they essentially make access universally accessible.

Palm Pre's webOS (2009) is the most famous. After an acquisition by HP (2010-2013), it was acquired by LG's (with patents going to Qualcomm).

Before that was a neat Linux project Pyrodesktop (2007) which was an x11 window manager using Firefox guts to render. There was also a trend of trying to mate Javascript technologies to gnome back then, with efforts like gjs seeing some adoption. I don't know how popular it is, but a spinoff of css was/is used for styling in GNOME for a while.

These days there's tons of web desktop projects. https://github.com/syxanash/awesome-web-desktops . Only sort of in the spirit but i quite adore Greenfield, an html5 Wayland desktop/compositor. https://github.com/udevbe/greenfield

The network is thr computer, yay!

Lower level, but there's also a Wayland compositor being written for the web. Many caveats apply, different effort, but also interesting, https://github.com/udevbe/greenfield

> A Wayland-style compositor, on the other hand, seems to be a much higher barrier to entry. ... I don't recall ever seeing "You have to use TWM because AfterStep won't work with your Trident 9440 video card" back in 1998.

All in all, the basics of Wayland are a pretty tight package. https://wayland-book.com/ goes through the pieces, and it's not a super thick read. The system of passing around surfaces is comprehensible, tight, makes sense, and there is very little fluff or barriers here, imo.

Wayland has a common core, but absolutely I'd grant that the various protocols do indeed make it a much less tightly coupled thing, with different compositors having different sets of protocols they support. So yes, some apps that require advanced capabilities run much better in some compositors than others; the compositor choice matters. Sometimes there are multiple competing protocols for the same feature-sets, but usually/historically, wayland-protocols hammers stuff out reasonably quickly & most of this is a matter of time.

Still, this is often easier than the past, where apps would have to each test for extensions & have various fast/regular/fallback codepaths depending on available extensions; not necessarily a hindrance to the window-manager, but a bundle of complexity for everyone else trying to use X11 adequately. The Wayland common primitives, on the other hand, are fairly universally performant & well chosen.

In terms of complexity for window-manager/compositor, the situation is not unlike X11 itself, where yes, a simple window manager (or compositor) is possible to spin up relatively quickly, but where there is a sea of different standards to implement to do a good job. Window manager hints, extended window manager hints, and a plethora of other standards existed around X11 that were up to the window-manager to tackle, and implementing each of those took a lot of time too, if you wanted good support for all apps. Different Wayland compositors also have different support for different protocols, and those are a bit deeper rooted, less superficial than many of the X11 hints (which, if ignored, were less likely to impede use), but the idea is the same: real support to really be decent took work in X11, and it takes work in Wayland.

Where I disagree highly is calling out the hardware here. Wayland is closely tied to kernel fundamentals; any reasonably supported video card will perform adequately under any compositor. (Generally. Certainly some compositors could demand higher standards, such as some of the experimental compositors requiring Vulkan, but generally compositors have very similar, very common requirements.)

> I wonder if it would have made more sense to go with a paired approach-- a single master compositor implementation, with the complicated and more hardware-sensitive stuff involved, and a pluggable window manager that spoke to it.

I like where we are, where there are various toolkits/libraries for implementing. Wlroots, which underpins chiefly Sway (the i3 replacement), has given rise to a variety of other compositors, spanning the gamut from quick/fast/experimental to rich/deep/powerful. libwayland still defines some core ideas, if not implementations. Weston is still available as a reference, although yes it's designed (more or less) to be forked & enhanced, not built to be preserved & built (extensibly) on top of. Wlroots & other alternative toolkits fill this need, & provide a diversity of ideas for how we might get going. Projects like Greenfield, the HTML5 compositor (https://github.com/udevbe/greenfield) demonstrate the diversity we get from not having a single common core technology, are possible because of this belief in protocol & standards over implementations, eased though implementations might be from promoting something like Weston to the one-and-only implementation.

> The whole "nVidia works, but only with the GNOME compositor" sort of stuff reads as a sign that there's way too much involved in there.

We can't look at a anti-plays-well-with-others entity like Nvidia to assess what is/isn't a good idea. Nvidia spent nearly a decade stomping their feet & demanding only their way was ok. The fact that OpenGL itself, what the rock their obstinacy was built around, is somewhat on the way out further should stress how foolish & self-centered this vendor has been. This discompatibility indicates nothing, is no sign, except an indicator of what kind of a company Nvidia is/was (one that obstructed any implementations of well known & common kernel constructs).

Now consider something like greenfield, a wayland compositor that runs on the browser.