pharo VS lite

Smalltalk (https://pharo.org/)

Smalltalk also did this. These days my impression is the most active tendril is https://pharo.org/.

What I find especially interesting about that relative to this Python distro is that the Pharo executable runs in a host OS (e.g. whatever your daily driver is) and can maintain different image files for different Pharo system states. So not only do you have the integrated language/OS (which is very cool on its own), but you also have something that feels like Docker containers.

And it even goes beyond containers because those image files really are the state of the system at the time they're saved, which means you can ask for that file in a bug report and get guaranteed bug reproduction, which is pretty incredible.

It is the initial alpha release end-user can test. It is a complete port from Pharo to Cuis-Smalltalk. Likely bugs will be find.

I've recently started learning Pharo^1 and I think there is a lot to like about it. It hurts to say as a Lisp and Emacs fan, but using the Pharo IDE feels like using Emacs/extending Emacs with Emacs Lisp, but somehow with a more tightly integrated language and environment. Being able to easily inspect the code related to the UI widgets, modify it and make changes on the fly are unlike anything I've experienced in other languages. I think a whole OS built on top of Smalltalk would be so cool and really play into the strengths of Smalltalk. I'm also amazed that SmallTalk had a lot of these IDE like features since before the 80s^2. I know there are a lot of issues with image based languages, and I admit I haven't been using one long enough to have experienced all the Gotcha, so what does HN think of Smalltalks and it's derivatives, and what are you all doing with them?

1. https://pharo.org/

2. https://youtu.be/uknEhXyZgsg?t=2366

Cool! I program for around 7 months in Pharo now at Yesplan [0]. We're hiring a devops engineer and a software engineer. While the Pharo website [1] avoids mentioning it, it's a Smalltalk descendant.

What I like about Pharo:

1. Programming in the debugger makes things feel much quicker

2. Evaluating expressions inside your code editor makes programming feel much quicker

3. The ability to quickly browse classes and methods makes programming feel much quicker (e.g. I type Date somewhere, select it, press CMD+B and now I browse the Date class).

Don't get me wrong, Pharo has downsides, especially when it comes to using it in production (IMO). With that said, the language feels fun to use! I definitely like it now as my first language for side projects as it is more graphical, more playful, and feels quicker for iterative development (e.g. when consuming APIs). It's why I wanted to learn it in the first place, it has shown me a different philosophy on how programmers interact with a programming language and IDE.

[0] https://yesplan.be/en/vacancies

[1] https://pharo.org

Of course, Alan Kay's Smalltalk 80 is for many the quintessential lost paradise of personal computing. Some modern descendants are Squeak, Pharo and Cuis. Then there's Lisp machines, or for something more Unix-like, there's Plan 9.. so many cool systems deprived of mass adoption for no good reason.

> You know, that "assembling things live in the sky" Lisp feeling (Yegge's phrase, not mine). The only other computation environment that is right there en par in flexibility and conveyance of the same trippy feeling is, of course, Emacs.

Do you know Pharo? The experience you describe is also typical in the Smalltalk family. See https://pharo.org/

Smalltalk could be used as the "ideal" tool (balance between Code & No-Code). It starts out with a simple graphical interface for doing everything, but it also encourages you to customize everything by modifying the underlying code. Of course, the disadvantage is that it's quite niche - very few people actually use it nowadays.

In Smalltalk there is no such thing as source files. Your program is an image which can be freely modified and dumped. Look at Pharo[1] which is a modern Smalltalk environment. You start it up and create classes in the IDE, but never do you create "source files".

[1] https://pharo.org/

Another small, minimalist Lua-based text editor is Lite[1], and it's much less "light" cousin Lite-XL[2]

1: https://github.com/rxi/lite

2: https://github.com/lite-xl/lite-xl

Playing with browser developer tools and always seeing obfuscated JavaScript makes me sad. I'm not a web developer, but I suspect the security gained is low enough to fall within the author's "unnecessary constraints."

On the other hand, there are projects like https://github.com/rxi/lite

Beyond the rendering which as noted is nothing that hasn't been done before (in general) the inherent OT/multi user + tree sitter functionality is something that entices me.

I'm surprised nobody pointed out lite/litexl here either it's rendering of ui is very similar (although fonts are via a texture; like a game would) and doesn't focus overly on the GPU but optimises those paths like games circa directx9/opengl 1.3

https://github.com/rxi/lite/blob/master/src/renderer.h

> is using pure software rendering (on top of SDL) in a rather naïve fashion

https://github.com/rxi/lite/blob/master/src/rencache.c#L4

I think you'll find that they found the naive approach was sufficiently poor, performance wise, that additional optimizations had to be applied on-top.

> But for quick hacking / porting old demos / writing emulators and also text based UI it can be fast enough.

/shrug

If you want to use it, use it. It's 'good enough'...

> if you vastly lower your expectations

How about lite https://github.com/rxi/lite

You have options: - Sublime Text - VsCodium - Lite - https://github.com/rxi/lite

I like the single lapce.exe and loads reasonably fast.

But this is in a pre pre-alpha stage, so many bugs it's far too early for public feedback. It loads reasonably fast except chrome stats in top left then jerks towards the center. The start page says to bring up the command palette which I was unable to navigate via keyboard.

The open file dialog takes an eternity to load the first time, the path is in a text box that's not editable. Focusing a text file gives an Insert cursor which is in text mode, there's a noticable slow delay before writing the first character, text selection is non existent so lacks basic text editing features.

There is a built-in terminal however there's only a single tab.

The only thing that gives it potential is that the folder/file browsing is super quick even with a node_modules folder so it might be built on efficient rendering that can be improved.

Even for such a basic editor it's 38mb download. For a far smaller + more complete editor checkout Lite:

https://github.com/rxi/lite