pharo VS squeak.org

Smalltalk (https://pharo.org/)

Smalltalk also did this. These days my impression is the most active tendril is https://pharo.org/.

What I find especially interesting about that relative to this Python distro is that the Pharo executable runs in a host OS (e.g. whatever your daily driver is) and can maintain different image files for different Pharo system states. So not only do you have the integrated language/OS (which is very cool on its own), but you also have something that feels like Docker containers.

And it even goes beyond containers because those image files really are the state of the system at the time they're saved, which means you can ask for that file in a bug report and get guaranteed bug reproduction, which is pretty incredible.

It is the initial alpha release end-user can test. It is a complete port from Pharo to Cuis-Smalltalk. Likely bugs will be find.

I've recently started learning Pharo^1 and I think there is a lot to like about it. It hurts to say as a Lisp and Emacs fan, but using the Pharo IDE feels like using Emacs/extending Emacs with Emacs Lisp, but somehow with a more tightly integrated language and environment. Being able to easily inspect the code related to the UI widgets, modify it and make changes on the fly are unlike anything I've experienced in other languages. I think a whole OS built on top of Smalltalk would be so cool and really play into the strengths of Smalltalk. I'm also amazed that SmallTalk had a lot of these IDE like features since before the 80s^2. I know there are a lot of issues with image based languages, and I admit I haven't been using one long enough to have experienced all the Gotcha, so what does HN think of Smalltalks and it's derivatives, and what are you all doing with them?

1. https://pharo.org/

2. https://youtu.be/uknEhXyZgsg?t=2366

Cool! I program for around 7 months in Pharo now at Yesplan [0]. We're hiring a devops engineer and a software engineer. While the Pharo website [1] avoids mentioning it, it's a Smalltalk descendant.

What I like about Pharo:

1. Programming in the debugger makes things feel much quicker

2. Evaluating expressions inside your code editor makes programming feel much quicker

3. The ability to quickly browse classes and methods makes programming feel much quicker (e.g. I type Date somewhere, select it, press CMD+B and now I browse the Date class).

Don't get me wrong, Pharo has downsides, especially when it comes to using it in production (IMO). With that said, the language feels fun to use! I definitely like it now as my first language for side projects as it is more graphical, more playful, and feels quicker for iterative development (e.g. when consuming APIs). It's why I wanted to learn it in the first place, it has shown me a different philosophy on how programmers interact with a programming language and IDE.

[0] https://yesplan.be/en/vacancies

[1] https://pharo.org

Of course, Alan Kay's Smalltalk 80 is for many the quintessential lost paradise of personal computing. Some modern descendants are Squeak, Pharo and Cuis. Then there's Lisp machines, or for something more Unix-like, there's Plan 9.. so many cool systems deprived of mass adoption for no good reason.

> You know, that "assembling things live in the sky" Lisp feeling (Yegge's phrase, not mine). The only other computation environment that is right there en par in flexibility and conveyance of the same trippy feeling is, of course, Emacs.

Do you know Pharo? The experience you describe is also typical in the Smalltalk family. See https://pharo.org/

Smalltalk could be used as the "ideal" tool (balance between Code & No-Code). It starts out with a simple graphical interface for doing everything, but it also encourages you to customize everything by modifying the underlying code. Of course, the disadvantage is that it's quite niche - very few people actually use it nowadays.

In Smalltalk there is no such thing as source files. Your program is an image which can be freely modified and dumped. Look at Pharo[1] which is a modern Smalltalk environment. You start it up and create classes in the IDE, but never do you create "source files".

[1] https://pharo.org/

Also, it's not really an "operating system", nor was it implemented by the ST. It's just part of Squeak (you got the name right), the "engine" Scratch 1.x was made with (which lets you edit the code in the same window it's running in).

Just downloaded https://squeak.org/ to play around with this concept.

I wonder if there is already a modern tool/suite for Node/Python inspired by Smalltalk...

AFAIK the major SmallTalk distributions are https://squeak.org/ and https://pharo.org/. I've heard that Pharo is more complex and "practical", while Squeak is more educational and beginner-friendly. But both stick to their roots with "everything is an object or method", extreme reflection, and integrated runtime/IDE.

Your concept looks nice, it reminds me a bit of the Lisperati: https://www.hackster.io/news/the-lisperati1000-is-a-cyberdec...

So, did you consider Lisp or maybe Smalltalk? Plan 9 or Inferno might also be options.

Plan 9 comes in different variants, the "classic" one (with a Raspberry Pi port by Richard Miller) or 9front, an Inferno porting tutorial can be found at https://github.com/yshurik/inferno-rpi

Lisp and Smalltalk can run with or without Linux underneath, e.g. on the Raspberry Pi.

Bare-metal Lisp is available with interim: http://interim-os.com

Finally, bare-metal Smalltalk is available in my crosstalk system: https://github.com/michaelengel/crosstalk

Of course, Lisp and Smalltalk can also run hosted under Linux, e.g. using Squeak (https://squeak.org), Pharo (https://pharo.org) or InterLisp (https://github.com/Interlisp/medley).

Or - a crazy idea - build an emacs-only machine. That would be fun! :)

This repository contains multiple projects closely related to (hardware-accelerated) rendering in Squeak/Smalltalk.

Packages related to using OpenGL in Squeak/Smalltalk.

Author here, feel free to ask any questions you have :).

It's amazing this little project shows up again here. So far, I received a lot of very positive and friendly feedback about this little pet project of mine.

The whole project would not have been possible without the work of Rene Stange, who created the circle bare-metal library for the Raspberry Pi (https://github.com/rsta2) and Dan Banay, who created a C++ implementation of the Smalltalk-80 VM (https://github.com/dbanay/Smalltalk). I mostly hacked together some glue code...

If you want to dig deeper, the Blue Book by Adele Goldberg and David Robson (scan provided by Stephane Ducasse, thanks a lot!) is _the_ reference on both the language and the structure and implementation of the underlying bytecode VM: http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/FreeBooks/BlueBook/Bluebook....

Beware, though it's fully functional, crosstalk is still limited by constraints of the original Smalltalk 80 system - e.g. in terms of color (black and white only), possible screen resolution (2^20 pixels, the system crashes if you try to increase the resolution beyond this) and available memory (~1 MB!).

Nevertheless, I think it's a rather authentic reproduction of a more than 40 year old system and I learned (in a comment thread on a completely different topic) that one of our fellow hackernews regulars used it to teach his kid Smalltalk programming - love it! I haven't tried to optimize it significantly, so there's no JIT compiler or bitblit acceleration using the Raspberry Pi GPU.

There's a more modern bare-metal Smalltalk implementation based on Squeak (https://squeak.org) for the Raspberry Pi by Pablo Marx, though this seems to have some stability problems according to the author: https://github.com/pablomarx/RaspberrySqueak

Finally, if you are interested in alternative bare-metal language/OS environments for the Raspberry Pi, you could also give Lukas Hartmann's (of MNT Reform notebook fame) Interim OS a try: http://interim-os.com

Came here to mention Smalltalk. In things like Smalltalk-80 and Squeak, there was no build system, there are no source code files, there isn't anything but the Smalltalk Development Environment. With something like ENVY/Developer, building involved generating an exported image from the environment.

If OP wants to try it: https://squeak.org/

She missed the biggest ‚programming portal‘ of all: Squeak (Smalltalk) (https://squeak.org/)

Inspecting objects, ‚live‘ coding, a GUI that's intimately tied to its CLI - that's exactly Squeak!

The Morphic UI: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/1870