SciMLBenchmarks.jl VS RecursiveFactorization.jl

What about the other benchmarks on the same site? https://docs.sciml.ai/SciMLBenchmarksOutput/stable/Bio/BCR/ BCR takes about a hundred seconds and is pretty indicative of systems biological models, coming from 1122 ODEs with 24388 terms that describe a stiff chemical reaction network modeling the BCR signaling network from Barua et al. Or the discrete diffusion models https://docs.sciml.ai/SciMLBenchmarksOutput/stable/Jumps/Dif... which are the justification behind the claims in https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.30.502135v1 that the O(1) scaling methods scale better than O(log n) scaling for large enough models? I mean.

> If you use special routines (BLAS/LAPACK, ...), use them everywhere as the respective community does.

It tests with and with BLAS/LAPACK (which isn't always helpful, which of course you'd see from the benchmarks if you read them). One of the key differences of course though is that there are some pure Julia tools like https://github.com/JuliaLinearAlgebra/RecursiveFactorization... which outperform the respective OpenBLAS/MKL equivalent in many scenarios, and that's one noted factor for the performance boost (and is not trivial to wrap into the interface of the other solvers, so it's not done). There are other benchmarks showing that it's not apples to apples and is instead conservative in many cases, for example https://github.com/SciML/SciPyDiffEq.jl#measuring-overhead showing the SciPyDiffEq handling with the Julia JIT optimizations gives a lower overhead than direct SciPy+Numba, so we use the lower overhead numbers in https://docs.sciml.ai/SciMLBenchmarksOutput/stable/MultiLang....

> you must compile/write whole programs in each of the respective languages to enable full compiler/interpreter optimizations

You do realize that a .so has lower overhead to call from a JIT compiled language than from a static compiled language like C because you can optimize away some of the bindings at the runtime right? https://github.com/dyu/ffi-overhead is a measurement of that, and you see LuaJIT and Julia as faster than C and Fortran here. This shouldn't be surprising because it's pretty clear how that works?

I mean yes, someone can always ask for more benchmarks, but now we have a site that's auto updating tons and tons of ODE benchmarks with ODE systems ranging from size 2 to the thousands, with as many things as we can wrap in as many scenarios as we can wrap. And we don't even "win" all of our benchmarks because unlike for you, these benchmarks aren't for winning but for tracking development (somehow for Hacker News folks they ignore the utility part and go straight to language wars...).

If you have a concrete change you think can improve the benchmarks, then please share it at https://github.com/SciML/SciMLBenchmarks.jl. We'll be happy to make and maintain another.

Project.toml or Manifest.toml? Every package has Project.toml which specifies bounds (https://github.com/SciML/OrdinaryDiffEq.jl/blob/master/Proje...). Every fully reproducible project has a Manifest that decrease the complete package state (https://github.com/SciML/SciMLBenchmarks.jl/blob/master/benc...).

> But in the end, it's FORTRAN all the way down. Even in Julia.

That's not true. None of the Julia differential equation solver stack is calling into Fortran anymore. We have our own BLAS tools that outperform OpenBLAS and MKL in the instances we use it for (mostly LU-factorization) and those are all written in pure Julia. See https://github.com/YingboMa/RecursiveFactorization.jl, https://github.com/JuliaSIMD/TriangularSolve.jl, and https://github.com/JuliaLinearAlgebra/Octavian.jl. And this is one part of the DiffEq performance story. The performance of this of course is all validated on https://github.com/SciML/SciMLBenchmarks.jl

Anything that continues to improve the SciMLBenchmarks of differential equation solvers, inverse problems, scientific machine learning, and equation discovery really. But there's a lot of other applications in mind, like generating compiler passes that improve floating point roundoff (like Herbie), a pure-Julia simple implementation of XLA-transformations for BLAS fusion, and a few others that are a bit more out there and will require a paper to describe the connection.

Show me a single DAE solver in Haskell that has even come close to the performance we get in the Julia SciMLBenchmarks. Here's just one example. For Haskell pacakages, all I see are wrappers to GSL and Sundials, both of which are slow in comparison. So this is a 8.5x speedup over something that was already faster than what you could find in Haskell. Show me something with decent speed in DAEs or it's useless.

That's both a joke and a truth. The DifferentialEquations.jl source code, along with the SciMLBenchmarks and all of the associated documentation, is by far the most complete resource on all of this stuff at this point, for a reason. I've always treated it as "a lab notebook for the community" which is why that 8,000 lines of tableau code, the thousands of convergence tests, etc. are there. Papers have typos sometimes, things change with benchmarks over time, etc. But well-tested code tells you whether something actually converges and what the true performance is today.

Star-P was sold off to Microsoft IIRC. Some of the people who had interned there then joined Alan's lab. They created the Julia programming language where now parallelism and performance is directly built into the language. I created the differential equation solver libraries for the language which then used all of these properties to benchmark very well, and that's how I subsequently started working with Alan. Then we took this to build systems that combine machine learning and numerical solvers to accelerate and automatically discover physical systems, and the resulting SciML organization and the scientific machine learning research, along with compiler-level automatic differentiation and parallelism, is where all of that is today with the Julia Lab.

https://homes.cs.washington.edu/~thickstn/ctpg-project-page/...

That's all showing the raw iteration count to show that it algorithmically is faster, but the time per iteration is also fast for many reasons showcased in the SciMLBenchmarks routinely outperforming C and Fortran solvers (https://github.com/SciML/SciMLBenchmarks.jl). So it's excelling pretty well, and things like the automated discovery of black hole dynamics are all done using the universal differential equation framework enabled by the SciML tools (see https://arxiv.org/abs/2102.12695 for that application).

What we are missing however is that, right now these simulations are all writing raw differential equations so we do need a better set of modeling tools. That said, MuJoCo and DiffTaichi are not great physical modeling environments for building real systems, instead we would point to Simulink and Modelica as what are really useful for building real-world systems. So it would be cool if there was a modeling language in Julia which extends that universe and directly does optimal code generation for the Julia solvers... and that's what ModelingToolkit.jl is (https://github.com/SciML/ModelingToolkit.jl). That project is still pretty new, but there's already enough to show some large-scale models outperforming Dymola on examples that require symbolic tearing and index reduction, which is far more than what physical simulation environments used for non-scientific purposes (MuJoCo and DiffTaichi) are able to do. See the workshop for details (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEVOgSLBzWA). And that's just the top level details, there's a whole Julia Computing product called JuliaSim (https://juliacomputing.com/products/juliasim/) which is then being built on these pieces to do things like automatically generate ML-accelerated components and add model building GUIs.

That said, MuJoCo and DiffTaichi have much better visualizations and animations than MTK. Our focus so far has been on the core routines, making them fast, scalable, stable, and extensive. You'll need to wait for the near future (or build something with Makie) if you want the pretty pictures of the robot to happen automatically. That said, Julia's Makie visualization system has already been shown to be sufficiently powerful for this kind of application (https://nextjournal.com/sdanisch/taking-your-robot-for-a-wal...), so we're excited to see where that will go in the future.

Most of the SciML organization is dedicated to research and production level scientific computing for domains like physical systems, chemical reactions, and systems biology (and more of course). The differential equation benchmarks are quite good in comparison to a lot of C++ and Fortran libraries, there's modern neural PDE solvers, pervasive automatic differentiation, automated GPU and distributed parallelism, SDE solvers, DDE solvers, DAE solvers, ModelingToolkit.jl for Modelica-like symbolic transformations for higher index DAEs, Bayesian differential equations, etc. All of that then ties into big PDE solving. You get the picture.

What about the other benchmarks on the same site? https://docs.sciml.ai/SciMLBenchmarksOutput/stable/Bio/BCR/ BCR takes about a hundred seconds and is pretty indicative of systems biological models, coming from 1122 ODEs with 24388 terms that describe a stiff chemical reaction network modeling the BCR signaling network from Barua et al. Or the discrete diffusion models https://docs.sciml.ai/SciMLBenchmarksOutput/stable/Jumps/Dif... which are the justification behind the claims in https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2022.07.30.502135v1 that the O(1) scaling methods scale better than O(log n) scaling for large enough models? I mean.

> If you use special routines (BLAS/LAPACK, ...), use them everywhere as the respective community does.

It tests with and with BLAS/LAPACK (which isn't always helpful, which of course you'd see from the benchmarks if you read them). One of the key differences of course though is that there are some pure Julia tools like https://github.com/JuliaLinearAlgebra/RecursiveFactorization... which outperform the respective OpenBLAS/MKL equivalent in many scenarios, and that's one noted factor for the performance boost (and is not trivial to wrap into the interface of the other solvers, so it's not done). There are other benchmarks showing that it's not apples to apples and is instead conservative in many cases, for example https://github.com/SciML/SciPyDiffEq.jl#measuring-overhead showing the SciPyDiffEq handling with the Julia JIT optimizations gives a lower overhead than direct SciPy+Numba, so we use the lower overhead numbers in https://docs.sciml.ai/SciMLBenchmarksOutput/stable/MultiLang....

> you must compile/write whole programs in each of the respective languages to enable full compiler/interpreter optimizations

You do realize that a .so has lower overhead to call from a JIT compiled language than from a static compiled language like C because you can optimize away some of the bindings at the runtime right? https://github.com/dyu/ffi-overhead is a measurement of that, and you see LuaJIT and Julia as faster than C and Fortran here. This shouldn't be surprising because it's pretty clear how that works?

I mean yes, someone can always ask for more benchmarks, but now we have a site that's auto updating tons and tons of ODE benchmarks with ODE systems ranging from size 2 to the thousands, with as many things as we can wrap in as many scenarios as we can wrap. And we don't even "win" all of our benchmarks because unlike for you, these benchmarks aren't for winning but for tracking development (somehow for Hacker News folks they ignore the utility part and go straight to language wars...).

If you have a concrete change you think can improve the benchmarks, then please share it at https://github.com/SciML/SciMLBenchmarks.jl. We'll be happy to make and maintain another.

Ask them to download Julia and try it, and file an issue if it is not fast enough. We try to have the latest available.

See for example: https://github.com/JuliaLinearAlgebra/RecursiveFactorization...

Julia defaults to OpenBLAS but libblastrampoline makes it so that `using MKL` flips it to MKL on the fly. See the JuliaCon video for more details on that (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6hptekOR7s). The recursive comparison is against OpenBLAS/LAPACK and MKL, see this PR for some (older) details: https://github.com/YingboMa/RecursiveFactorization.jl/pull/2... . What it really comes down to in the end is that OpenBLAS is rather bad, and MKL is optimized for Intel CPUs but not for AMD CPUs, so when the best CPUs are now all AMD CPUs, having a new set of BLAS tools and mixing that with recursive LAPACK tools is either as good or better on most modern systems. Then we see this in practice even when we build BLAS into Sundials for 1,000 ODE chemical reaction networks (https://benchmarks.sciml.ai/html/Bio/BCR.html).

>I hope those benchmarks are coming in hot

M1 is extremely good for PDEs because of its large cache lines.

https://github.com/SciML/DiffEqOperators.jl/issues/407#issue...

The JuliaSIMD tools which are internally used for BLAS instead of OpenBLAS and MKL (because they tend to outperform standard BLAS's for the operations we use https://github.com/YingboMa/RecursiveFactorization.jl/pull/2...) also generate good code for M1, so that was giving us some powerful use cases right off the bat even before the heroics allowed C/Fortran compilers to fully work on M1.

Not necessarily true with Julia. Many libraries like DifferentialEquations.jl are Julia all of the way down because the pure Julia BLAS tools outperform OpenBLAS and MKL in certain areas. For example see:

https://github.com/YingboMa/RecursiveFactorization.jl/pull/2...

So a stiff ODE solve is pure Julia, LU-factorizations and all.

Also, the major point is that BLAS has little to no role played here. Algorithms which just hit BLAS are very suboptimal already. There's a tearing step which reduces the problem to many subproblems which is then more optimally handled by pure Julia numerical linear algebra libraries which greatly outperform OpenBLAS in the regime they are in:

https://github.com/YingboMa/RecursiveFactorization.jl#perfor...

And there are hooks in the differential equation solvers to not use OpenBLAS in many cases for this reason:

https://github.com/SciML/DiffEqBase.jl/blob/master/src/linea...

Instead what this comes out to is more of a deconstructed KLU, except instead of parsing to a single sparse linear solve you can do semi-independent nonlinear solves which are then spawning parallel jobs of small semi-dense linear solves which are handled by these pure Julia linear algebra libraries.

And that's only a small fraction of the details. But at the end of the day, if someone is thinking "BLAS", they are already about an order of magnitude behind on speed. The algorithms to do this effectively are much more complex than that.