Ask HN: What do you think will come after Kubernetes?

This page summarizes the projects mentioned and recommended in the original post on news.ycombinator.com

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  • tutorialinux-hashistack

    A hands-on learning project for consul, using Terraform

  • If anyone wants to test nomad/consul on AWS, and you just want to type 'terraform apply' and then have a consul cluster, nomad cluster, and example app to play around with: https://github.com/groovemonkey/tutorialinux-hashistack/

    It's a work in progress but might be helpful to someone!

  • kcp

    Kubernetes-like control planes for form-factors and use-cases beyond Kubernetes and container workloads. (by kcp-dev)

  • Simpler and monolith has it's place, but I see it as impossible for any "simple" solution to ever gain enough mindshare to win. A lot of people suggesting monoliths & hosted services, but they are never going to have the community, the presence of something like Kubernetes, which unites people, which people collaborate over, in the same way we all got to learn & experience & co-develop for Docker. The question posted somewhat gets it wrong, "Kubernetes became a thing after Docker became a thing (and so on," implies that they're different things, that tech is about different things, but in many ways Kubernetes is a natural extension & outgrowth, it is a part of the Docker scene, & has continuity with it.

    Kubernetes is a thing now, but it's patterns are still underspoken of, underpracticed, underdeployed to the rest of the software world. We will get better at being like Kubernetes, for great benefit. Folks learning how control-loops are advantageous, and learning to use universal API Servers for all their systems will continue to drive not just Kubernetes, but the patterns underlying Kubernetes further into our applications & services & technologies. Tech like KCP[1] is an early indicator of this interest, in using the soul of kubernetes if not it's specific machinery, by creating an independent, non-Kubernetes, but Kubernetes compatible API Server. Having universal storage, having autonomic system control are huge advantages when system building, and gaining those benefits is fairly easy, with or without Kubernetes itself.

    I'm hoping we see a DIY cloud'ing become more of a thing. Leaving everything in the hands of hyperscalers is a puzzling and hard to imagine state of affairs, given the hardware nirvana we've experienced in the past two plus decades. Kubernetes is the first viable multi-system operational paradigm, the first diy-able cloud we have, and it's shocking it took that long, but smaller practitioners getting good at converting their sea of individual boxes into something more resembling the Single System Image dreams of old, albeit through a highly indirect Kubernetes-ish route, is a decade or decades long quest we seemingly just started in to a couple years ago.

    I'm hoping eventually ubiquotous and pervasive computing starts to dovetail with this world, that we start to have better view & visibility of all the computing resources around us, via standardized, well known interfaces. Rather than the hodgepodge of manufacturer controlled, invisible, un-debuggable overlay networks that alas, constitute the vast majority of the use of the internet these days. Alas the news there is never good, the new Matter standard is, like Thread, inaccessible, unviewable; consumers are expected to remain dumb, ignorant, unaware of how any of it works, merely thankful for whatever magic they receive[2][3]. But as a home-cloud, as the manor re-establishes computing as base & competency for itself (#ManorCompute), & as good projects like WebThings[4] or whatever takes it's place light the darkened damp corridors only robots patrolled, I hope for a reawakening, hope a silent majority becomes more real & known, hope the fed up, sick of this shit, disgusted with remote-service-based technology world starts to manifest & apply real pressure to emerge a healthy, pro-human, pro-user ubiquotous & pervasive computing that gives us an honest shake, that shows what it is, that integrates into our personal home clouds.

    I think there's a huge pent up demand & desire for flow-based/evented systems, for Yahoo Pipes, for Node-RED[5]. The paradigm needs help, I think there's too many missing pieces for something like Node-RED to be the one, but re-emerging user-control, giving us ALL flexible means to compute, is key. Exposing & embracing some level of technical literacy is something people want, but no one knows how to articulate it or what they want. We're mired in a "faster horses" stage, and it's fundamentally incorrect.

    Last, I have huge hopes for the web. There are incredibly awesome advances being made in the range of peripherals, devices, capabilities the web supports. The web can do so much more. We're barely beginning to use the cutting edge ServiceWorkers, barely beginning to use Custom Elements ("WebComponenets"), and these aren't even that new any more. These are fundamentally revolutionary technologies. Things like File System Access just came back on the scene after over a decade of going nowhere. Secondary screen working group is tying together multiple systems in interesting ways. There's a lot of high-tower shit, in WebAssembly (especially when Interface Bindings starts to allow real interop with JS), in TypeScript, but to me, I think rather than just building up up up there's some very real re-assessments we ought to be making about how and what we build. Trying to make self-documenting machines, trying to make computing visible, these aren't concerns of industrial computing, but they are socially invaluable advances that have been somewhat on hold in the age of Pax React-us, and we're well over half a decade in & while there's endless areas to learn about, improve, get better at in this highly industrialized toolset, I want to think there are some slumbering appetites, some desires to re-assess. I'm a bit afraid/scared of WebAssembly being a huge tower-of-babel time-sink/re-industrializing-focus that distracts from the need for a new vision quest, but I have hope too, I see the yearning. Albeit often expressed in lo-fi counter-culture, which to me is a distraction & avoidance, rather than the socially empowering act that has been a quiet part of the web's promise[6].

    [1] https://github.com/kcp-dev/kcp

    [2] https://staceyoniot.com/project-chip-becomes-matter/

    [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27123944

    [4] https://webthings.io/

    [5] https://nodered.org/

    [6] https://webdevlaw.uk/2021/01/30/why-generation-x-will-save-t...

  • SurveyJS

    Open-Source JSON Form Builder to Create Dynamic Forms Right in Your App. With SurveyJS form UI libraries, you can build and style forms in a fully-integrated drag & drop form builder, render them in your JS app, and store form submission data in any backend, inc. PHP, ASP.NET Core, and Node.js.

    SurveyJS logo
  • Node RED

    Low-code programming for event-driven applications

  • Simpler and monolith has it's place, but I see it as impossible for any "simple" solution to ever gain enough mindshare to win. A lot of people suggesting monoliths & hosted services, but they are never going to have the community, the presence of something like Kubernetes, which unites people, which people collaborate over, in the same way we all got to learn & experience & co-develop for Docker. The question posted somewhat gets it wrong, "Kubernetes became a thing after Docker became a thing (and so on," implies that they're different things, that tech is about different things, but in many ways Kubernetes is a natural extension & outgrowth, it is a part of the Docker scene, & has continuity with it.

    Kubernetes is a thing now, but it's patterns are still underspoken of, underpracticed, underdeployed to the rest of the software world. We will get better at being like Kubernetes, for great benefit. Folks learning how control-loops are advantageous, and learning to use universal API Servers for all their systems will continue to drive not just Kubernetes, but the patterns underlying Kubernetes further into our applications & services & technologies. Tech like KCP[1] is an early indicator of this interest, in using the soul of kubernetes if not it's specific machinery, by creating an independent, non-Kubernetes, but Kubernetes compatible API Server. Having universal storage, having autonomic system control are huge advantages when system building, and gaining those benefits is fairly easy, with or without Kubernetes itself.

    I'm hoping we see a DIY cloud'ing become more of a thing. Leaving everything in the hands of hyperscalers is a puzzling and hard to imagine state of affairs, given the hardware nirvana we've experienced in the past two plus decades. Kubernetes is the first viable multi-system operational paradigm, the first diy-able cloud we have, and it's shocking it took that long, but smaller practitioners getting good at converting their sea of individual boxes into something more resembling the Single System Image dreams of old, albeit through a highly indirect Kubernetes-ish route, is a decade or decades long quest we seemingly just started in to a couple years ago.

    I'm hoping eventually ubiquotous and pervasive computing starts to dovetail with this world, that we start to have better view & visibility of all the computing resources around us, via standardized, well known interfaces. Rather than the hodgepodge of manufacturer controlled, invisible, un-debuggable overlay networks that alas, constitute the vast majority of the use of the internet these days. Alas the news there is never good, the new Matter standard is, like Thread, inaccessible, unviewable; consumers are expected to remain dumb, ignorant, unaware of how any of it works, merely thankful for whatever magic they receive[2][3]. But as a home-cloud, as the manor re-establishes computing as base & competency for itself (#ManorCompute), & as good projects like WebThings[4] or whatever takes it's place light the darkened damp corridors only robots patrolled, I hope for a reawakening, hope a silent majority becomes more real & known, hope the fed up, sick of this shit, disgusted with remote-service-based technology world starts to manifest & apply real pressure to emerge a healthy, pro-human, pro-user ubiquotous & pervasive computing that gives us an honest shake, that shows what it is, that integrates into our personal home clouds.

    I think there's a huge pent up demand & desire for flow-based/evented systems, for Yahoo Pipes, for Node-RED[5]. The paradigm needs help, I think there's too many missing pieces for something like Node-RED to be the one, but re-emerging user-control, giving us ALL flexible means to compute, is key. Exposing & embracing some level of technical literacy is something people want, but no one knows how to articulate it or what they want. We're mired in a "faster horses" stage, and it's fundamentally incorrect.

    Last, I have huge hopes for the web. There are incredibly awesome advances being made in the range of peripherals, devices, capabilities the web supports. The web can do so much more. We're barely beginning to use the cutting edge ServiceWorkers, barely beginning to use Custom Elements ("WebComponenets"), and these aren't even that new any more. These are fundamentally revolutionary technologies. Things like File System Access just came back on the scene after over a decade of going nowhere. Secondary screen working group is tying together multiple systems in interesting ways. There's a lot of high-tower shit, in WebAssembly (especially when Interface Bindings starts to allow real interop with JS), in TypeScript, but to me, I think rather than just building up up up there's some very real re-assessments we ought to be making about how and what we build. Trying to make self-documenting machines, trying to make computing visible, these aren't concerns of industrial computing, but they are socially invaluable advances that have been somewhat on hold in the age of Pax React-us, and we're well over half a decade in & while there's endless areas to learn about, improve, get better at in this highly industrialized toolset, I want to think there are some slumbering appetites, some desires to re-assess. I'm a bit afraid/scared of WebAssembly being a huge tower-of-babel time-sink/re-industrializing-focus that distracts from the need for a new vision quest, but I have hope too, I see the yearning. Albeit often expressed in lo-fi counter-culture, which to me is a distraction & avoidance, rather than the socially empowering act that has been a quiet part of the web's promise[6].

    [1] https://github.com/kcp-dev/kcp

    [2] https://staceyoniot.com/project-chip-becomes-matter/

    [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27123944

    [4] https://webthings.io/

    [5] https://nodered.org/

    [6] https://webdevlaw.uk/2021/01/30/why-generation-x-will-save-t...

  • wasmer

    🚀 The leading Wasm Runtime supporting WASIX, WASI and Emscripten

  • Docker enabled Kubernetes. Before then we really didn't have a unit of compute that could be reproduce easily in different environments.

    However, Docker has some downsides:

    (1) It centers the unit of computation in the Operating System layer

    (2) Docker relies on a completely homogeneous infrastructure (same chipset, almost same Operating System).

    (3) It relies on a Virtualization layer (usually KVM) to be run securely

    I believe (1) caused a vast amount of complexity when scaling, since you are scaling "OS Instances", not applications or functions, which caused Kubernetes to inherit most of this issues and be perhaps much more complex than it should.

    I think (2) is key because with new trends coming up (such as Edge Computing, Serverless, IoT and 5G) we are starting to have the need of running software universally across a more diverse infrastructure (different chipsets and OSs).

    And (1) and (3) causes a significant slow-down for startup times (see Firecracker state of the art project with a ~250ms best startup time - not good enough).

    I believe most of this issues are solved with WebAssembly: simpler scaling, universal execution across diverse infrastructure and fast startup times. And I'm actually working full-time in Wasmer [1] to make of this vision a reality! Please shoot me an email to syrus@wasmer.io if you are interested on working together on this vision :)

    [1] https://wasmer.io/

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