stshell VS oil

It's slowly getting traction - Kotlin on Android has a "live update" feature (in development, only available in alpha release), for example. Multiple less mainstream languages also offer the feature. Nim got it in the last major release, for example. V has it as one of the base features. Erlang and Elixir had it since forever. Common Lisp as well. Racket and Clojure are a little more limited than CL, but also support it. Many interpreted languages offer some degree of this, either by default (JavaScript) or as a library/package (Python, Ruby).

In general, programming language features take about 20 to 30 years to go from obscure niche implementation into the mainstream. Look at lambdas - anonymous function literals - they're now everywhere, including Java and C++. Ten years ago, though, only some scripting languages had it. The feature itself is as old as the bones of the Earth (LISP, 1960, 63 years old). The same is true for many other "advanced" features. I think this is tied to generational changes - each generation of programmers has a chance to bring one or two lesser known features into mainstream, and then they're content with that. Other features have to wait for the next generation to discover them.

As for Smalltalk - I made a mistake and based the implementation on GNU Smalltalk, which is unmaintained. I should have gone with Smalltalk/X, Visual Works, or (begrudgingly) Pharo (or Cuis). I started the project as yet another attempt at making a MUD, but then changed focus to making a productive command-line-based programming env for Smalltalk. Then I changed my mind again and tried to make it into a usable shell. Here's the project: https://github.com/piotrklibert/stshell/ The screenshots focus on the REPL/shell side, but in the source you'll see things like "server", "player", and "world". There are a few locations IIRC and you can move your character between them still. It was an interesting project, but without a clear vision of what it should be it lost focus and I left it to rot after a while :(

> We need better shells.

Obviously. I don't think this is the most important missing part, though. I would say it differently: we need way, way better REPLs.

IPython is an example of a REPL that's passable as a shell. It can run in a terminal and has a GUI version based on Qt, which allows displaying images inline. You can drop into a "real" shell with a single `!` character (you get pipes, output capture, and (Python) variable interpolation), and it even has some syntactic shortcuts for the parts where Python's own syntax is irritatingly verbose. If you like Python, then IPython can be your day-to-day shell right now. You just need to remember not to start ncurses programs from within qtconsole (works ok in terminal). I used it for a few years when I was forced to work on Windows. Before my time, I heard it was popular to use tclsh as a shell on Windows.

I think that it proves that almost any language can be used as a shell, as long as its REPL is as rich and featureful enough. Since you can use Python as a shell, which as a language is not exactly the epitome of terseness and expressiveness, you could definitely make do with almost any other interpreted language, too. The problem is that very, very few languages have REPLs that are anywhere near IPython. It's so bad sometimes that you're advised to use `rlwrap` just to get basic line editing and history!

I've been working on a new shell based on GNU Smalltalk[1]. I really like the syntax - or lack of thereof - and being able to dump an image at any time seemed like a good idea. The only change I needed was to add the `|>` pseudo-operator, which puts what's on the left into parens. Being able to introspect the running session was my primary motivation: I wanted to make the shell and the whole environment as discoverable as possible. I wrote some code for that and then realized that the default REPL uses readline from C, so it freezes the entire VM when waiting for input (including all background threads). My workaround was to set up a socket server and connect to it via rlwrapped telnet...

Anyway, I think "do we need a new shell" is the wrong question; instead, we should focus on improving REPLs to the point where a separate shell becomes unnecessary.

[1] https://github.com/piotrklibert/stshell

will prevent almost all of the "silent footguns".

YSH has strict:all and then a bunch of NEW features.

There's been good feedback recently, which has led to many concrete changes. So your experience can definitely influence the language! https://github.com/oilshell/oil/wiki/Where-To-Send-Feedback

Regarding writing tools/tests/benchmarks in bash+Python, vs. writing tools in your main language:

I think we might eventually concede that something Debian-like is the “standard development environment” (at least for server side stuff, i.e. not iOS apps)

In this case, bash+Python is a non-issue. It works extremely reliably. That’s actually why I use it! Everything else seems to break, or it’s really slow (node.js is a very common alternative).

- Microsoft conceded this back in ~2017, by building Linux into their kernel with WSL, and providing Ubuntu on top

Yes bash + Python is a disaster on Windows (I have scars from it), but Microsoft agrees that the right place to solve that is in Windows :-)

- Every CI system runs Debian/Ubuntu

- Every hosting provider runs Debian/Ubuntu

- Every online dev env like gitpod.io provides Debian/Ubuntu

This is somewhat related to remote dev envs: https://lobste.rs/s/ucirlx/lapdev_self_hosted_remote_dev

One vision for https://www.oilshell.org/ is that the CI environment is the dev environment is the hosting environment.

Everything is just an equal node in a distributed system. BUT it’s more git like, in that you explicitly sync and work “locally”, wherever that is. You don’t have the network chatter and flakiness of “the cloud”.

Oils has a very large set of monotonically increasing properties too - https://www.oilshell.org/release/0.21.0/quality.html

All that is bash+Python that is run on every commit, and it’s extremely good at catching bugs and perf regressions.

I’m skeptical that any project has that level of quality automation written in pure Rust or Zig. More likely it’s a bunch of cloud services with YAML.

Also a bunch of “hard-coded” toolchains that you can’t script with bespoke code. Like some shell commands in your package.json, which is just a worse way of writing a shell script.

Our quality process is all self-hosted, in the repo, and runs on both Github Actions and sourcehut - https://www.oilshell.org/release/0.21.0/pub/metrics.wwz/line...

bash and Python runs perfectly on Github Actions and sourcehut, with zero change. Containers also do.

(Although we need to unify the CI and release, because the release runs on 2 different real hardware machines, while CI is cloud only.)

Also, a main point Oils is that bash now has another highly compatible, spec-driven implementation – OSH. Having 2 independent implementations is something newer languages don’t have.

(copy of lobste.rs comment)

in your bashrc to enable it. I've used it for probably ~18 years now.

It also works with https://www.oilshell.org/ since we use GNU readline. Just 'set -o vi' in ~/.config/oils/oshrc

No other shell does that.

But I didn't know it was called MULTIOS until now. (I guess that's read "mult I/O's"? I have a hard time not reading it was multi-OS :) )

It seems a bit niche to be honest, but it's possible to support in Oils.

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Oils also uses Unix domain sockets already for the headless shell protocol

https://github.com/oilshell/oil/wiki/Headless-Mode

We could do something like dgsh, but so far I haven't seen a lot of uptake / demand. Every time it's mentioned, somebody kinda wants it, and then it kinda peters out again ... still possible though.

I think flat files work fine for a lot of use cases, and once you add streaming, you also want monitoring, more control over backpressure/queue sizes, etc.

which works well. You don't have to clean when rebuilding variants. IMO this is 100% essential for writing C++ these days. You need a bunch of test binaries, and all tests should be run with ASAN and UBSAN.

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I wrote a mini-bazel on top of Ninja with these features:

https://www.oilshell.org/blog/2022/10/garbage-collector.html...

So it's ~1700 lines, but for that you get the build macros like asdl_library() generating C++ and Python (the same as proto_library(), a schema language that generates code)

And it also correctly finds dependencies of code generators. So if you change a .py file that is imported by another .py file that is used to generated a C++ header, everything will work. That was one of the trickier bits, with Ninja implicit dependencies.

I also use the Bazel-target syntax like //core/process

This build file example mixes low level Ninja n.rule() and n.build() with high level r.cc_library() and so forth. I find this layering really does make it scale better for bigger projects

https://github.com/oilshell/oil/blob/master/asdl/NINJA_subgr...

Some more description - https://lobste.rs/s/qnb7xt/ninja_is_enough_build_system#c_tu...

This is sort of a category error...

re2c is a lexer generator, and YAML and Python are recursive/nested formats.

You can definitely use re2c to lex them, but it's not the whole solution.

I use it for everything possible in https://www.oilshell.org, and it's amazing. It really reduces the amount of fiddly C code you need to parse languages, and it drops in anywhere.

SEEKING VOLUNTEERS - https://www.oilshell.org/ - https://github.com/oilshell/oil/

I'm looking for people to help fill out the "standard library" for Oils/YSH. We're implementing a shell for Python and JavaScript programmers who avoid shell!

On the surface, this is writing some very simple functions in typed Python. But I've realized that the hardest parts are specifying, TESTING, and documenting what the functions do.

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The most recent release announcement also asks for help - https://www.oilshell.org/blog/2024/01/release-0.19.0.html (long)

If you find all those details interesting (if maybe overwhelming), you might have a mind for language design, and could be a good person to help.

Surveying what Python and JavaScript do is very helpful, e.g. for the recent Str.replace() function, which is nontrivial (takes a regex or string, replacement template or string)

But there are also very simple methods to get started, like Dict.values() and List.indexOf(). Other people have already contributed code. Examples:

https://github.com/oilshell/oil/commit/58d847008427dba2e60fe...

https://github.com/oilshell/oil/commit/8f38ee36d01162593e935...

This can also be useful to tell if you'll have fun working on the project - https://github.com/oilshell/oil/wiki/Where-Contributors-Have...

More on #help-wanted on Zulip (requires login) - https://oilshell.zulipchat.com/#narrow/stream/417617-help-wa...

Please send a message on Github or Zulip! Or e-mail me andy at oilshell dot org.

This is true, but then the corrolary is that new PRs need to come with this higher and rigorous level of test coverage.

And then that becomes a bit of a barrier to contribution -- that's a harness

I often write entirely new test harnesses for features, e.g. for https://www.oilshell.org, many of them linked here . All of these run in the CI - https://www.oilshell.org/release/latest/quality.html

The good thing is that it definitely helps me accept PRs faster. Current contributors are good at this kind of exhaustive testing, but many PRs aren't