orioledb VS TimescaleDB

hey hn, supabase ceo here

we've been fans of Oriole for a while now and have been long-time supporters

in case you're jumping straight to the comments: OrioleDB is a table storage extension for Postgres. it acts as a drop-in replacement for the default postgres storage engine using the Table Access Method APIs (pluggable storage). the storage engine changes the representation of table data on disk. its architecture is designed to take advantage of modern hardware like SSDs and NVRAM. it implements MVCC, the feature that allows allows multiple connected users to see different versions of the data depending on when their transaction started, via an UNDO log rather than tuple versioning.

one caveat: it requires several patches to the postgres core to expand on the type of features external storage engines extensions can implement. for this reason it could be a while before you see this land as a default engine on supabase. we will probably make it available as an option for customers who want to experiment - no timeline is decided yet.

finally, we have been working with the team on decoupled storage and compute [0]. this is experimental but promising, especially with some recent advances in S3 (specifically Express One Zone [1]). we have a demonstration in the blog post.

i'll message Alexander in case there are any technical questions

[0] https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb/blob/main/doc/usage.md#...

[1] https://aws.amazon.com/s3/storage-classes/express-one-zone/

When I saw "cloud native" I was expecting S3-ish the way Neon does it but they say it's experimental: https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb/blob/beta4/doc/usage.md... and for them to say "beta, don't use in production" and then a separate "experimental" label must make it really bad

There are some interesting things in development to potentially solve that problem.

Here's a recent HN submission about OrioleDB of the more promising ones: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36740921

Source code: https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb

https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb/blob/main/doc/arch.md

> - PostgreSQL is very conservative (maybe extremely) conservative about data safety (mostly achieved via fsync-ing at the right times), and that propagates through the IO stack, including SSD firmware, to cause slowdowns

This is why our first goal is to become pure extension. Becoming part of PostgreSQL would require test of time.

> - MVCC is very nice for concurrent access - the Oriole doc doesn't say with what concurrency are the graphs achieved

Good catch. I've added information about VM type and concurrency to the blog post.

> - The title of the Oriole doc and its intro text center about solving VACUUM, which is of course a good goal, but I don't think they show that the "square wave" graphs they achieve for PostgreSQL are really in majority caused by VACUUM. Other benchmarks, like Percona's (https://www.percona.com/blog/evaluating-checkpointing-in-pos...) don't yield this very distinctive square wave pattern.

Yes, it's true. The square patters is because of checkpointing. The reason of improvements here is actually not VACUUM, but modification of relevant indexes only (and row-level WAL, which decreases overall IO).

I took a look at https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb which is a project attempting to remedy some of Postgres' shortcomings, including MVCC. It looks like they're doing something similar to MySQL with a redo log, as well as some other optimizations. So maybe this is the answer.

You don’t need a database written (or rewritten in Rust). we’re working to make Postgres scalable for the next decade too https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb

> I’d love to see B-Tree primary storage option. Aka store the row data inside the primary index.

It is coming: https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb

sorry to underwhelm!

if you like Neon, then I imagine you like their database branching model? On Friday we announced[0] our 500K investment into OrioleDB, who are working on branching[1], with the plan to upstream these changes into Postgres core.

It would be possible for us to run a fork of Postgres today which supports branching, but our long-term view is that developers would prefer a non-forked version of Postgre (to mitigate any risk of lock-in). So we will work on adding branching to Postgres core in the background, which will be a benefit to the entire Postgres ecosystem.

[0] Announcement:https://supabase.com/blog/supabase-series-b#where-were-going

[1] https://github.com/orioledb/orioledb/wiki/Database-branching

Don't forget PostgreSQL extensions. For something like a chat log, TimescaleDB (https://www.timescale.com/) can be surprisingly efficient. It will handle partitioning for you, with additional features like data reordering, compression, and retention policies.

Offboard it to Postgres specialists like https://www.timescale.com/

TimescaleDB{:target="_blank"}: an extension of PostgreSQL that adds time-series capabilities to the relational database model. It provides scalability and performance optimizations for handling large volumes of time-stamped data while maintaining the flexibility of a relational database.

Have some experience with https://www.timescale.com in this context

What about getting in touch with commercial organisations that have products/services based on PostgreSQL? For example Timescale, EDB, and Citus Data, or really any hosting provider that offers a managed PostgreSQL service.

There is Timescale.

Friends don't let their friends choose Mysql :)

A super long time ago (decades) when I was using Oracle regularly I had to make a decision on which way to go. Although Mysql then had the mindshare I thought that Postgres was more similar to Oracle, more standards compliant, and more of a real enterprise type of DB. The rumor was also that Postgres was heavier than MySQL. Too many horror stories of lost data (MyIsam), bad transactions (MyIsam lacks transaction integrity), and the number of Mysql gotchas being a really long list influenced me.

In time I actually found out that I had underestimated one of the most important attributes of Postgres that was a huge strength over Mysql: the power of community. Because Postgres has a really superb community that can be found on Libera Chat and elsewhere, and they are very willing to help out, I think Postgres has a huge advantage over Mysql. RhodiumToad [Andrew Gierth] https://github.com/RhodiumToad & davidfetter [David Fetter] https://www.linkedin.com/in/davidfetter are incredibly helpful folks.

I don't know that Postgres' licensing made a huge difference or not but my perception is that there are a ton of 3rd party products based on Postgres but customized to specific DB needs because of the more liberalness of the PG license which is MIT/BSD derived https://www.postgresql.org/about/licence/

Some of the PG based 3rd party DBs:

Enterprise DB https://www.enterprisedb.com/ - general purpose PG with some variants

Greenplum https://greenplum.org/ - Data warehousing

Crunchydata https://www.crunchydata.com/products/hardened-postgres - high security Postgres for regulated environments

Citus https://www.citusdata.com - Distributed DB & Columnar

Timescale https://www.timescale.com/

Why Choose PG today?

If you want better ACID: Postgres

If you want more compliant SQL: Postgres

If you want more customizability to a variety of use-cases: Postgres using a variant

If you want the flexibility of using NOSQL at times: Postgres

If you want more product knowledge reusability for other backend products: Postgres

TimescaleDB is Postgres with extensions to automatically partition tables for fast processing of time series data.