matrix.org VS hydrogen-web

That's a very interesting thread, because this is one of the major issues we have with Matrix. It's not directly a product but a (technical) protocol that can't be presented as such to the general public.

We definitely aim for Matrix-based products to be used by the general public, in the same way emails are. For this to happen, we need to be mindful of who our audiences are, what they are looking for, what they know and don't know, and how to deliver a message that works for them.

If you're interested in how we thought the website, you can check https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix.org/issues/1502 and https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix.org/issues/1543 for example

no idea what's going on here; the post hasn't been changed since it was published: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix.org/commits/main/conten...

Scalar (the integration manager) is not open source [1] (though there was some effort to reverse-engineer its protocol [2]); and some of their anti-abuse scripts aren't public [3]

[1] https://github.com/vector-im/element-meta/issues/260

[2] https://github.com/turt2live/matrix-dimension/blob/master/do...

[3] https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix.org/issues/557

Saw this post and made me a bit concerned that im heading down a bad route. I understand that CF can harvest metadata but as the chats are encrypted it will be all good?

Yes! See https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web/releases/tag/v0.3....

I think you're right, the experience of element on Android isn't great, I use mostly the web app that seems to get more attention and doesn't feel as sluggish. But to bring some hope, I think this will change soon-ish. The Matrix ecosystem has been in kind of a MVP state for several years, the focus was more on the protocol/APIs and not so much on the performance that translates in user experience. But efforts are on the way to improve all of this, on the client side there are several projects working on other clients that might be more performant, including the company behind Element, they have a work-in-progress lightweight client https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web On the server side most servers run Synapse which is written in Python without much though for performance or scalability but there are faster/lighter alternatives on the way like Dendrite or Conduit. It also doesn't help that most accounts are in the same overcrowded Synapse server(matrix.org), overtime it should become more common to have more alternatives and people even running their home server embedded in their device.

It’s using normal Matrix olm/megolm double ratchet encryption.

To track the identity of who you’re talking to we can do TOFU and/or normal out of band Matrix verification as per https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web/issues/518 - but this isn’t yet exposed in Chatterbox. We’ll get it added, as without verification you obviously can’t spot a MITM.

You can use this web app to access the chat. Join the #general channel. https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web

Hydrogen's installation process was pretty much exactly the same as Element, the github README was just a lot less specific and there is no config file so you have to edit the HTML directly to get it to point to your site instead of matrix.org by default.

> I'm rather convinced at this point that all of these people chanting "Can we just go back to traditional approaches!" have never built a web app of reasonable complexity, never used something like React, or have some sort of combination of FOMO and/or comfort in their long-held approach.

I've got plenty of React & front-end experience and vastly prefer a thin library on top of the DOM than something like React, also for large applications. React is ok if all goes well, but when you have to debug or profile something, all the complexity behind the scenes occludes what you are looking for. Most of the time, people want JSX so you need a transpiler. Also keeping up with changes in new React releases seems like a lot of lost time.

I've been building [1] without a transpiler and just a 600 lines template library (see [2]), and it has been such a breath of fresh air. The fact that there is so little code between you and the browser makes it very easy to see what is going on. Call stacks of max around 15 frames.

It sounds like you are comparing React to jquery code without components, and I justed wanted to highlight that DOM APIs have evolved since those days, and that you don't need a library like React to structure your code.

React has popularized good ideas in front-end development, like components, but I think the complexity cost of a virtual DOM is often underestimated.

1: https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web/

Matrix's resource utilisation is improving very rapidly at the moment.

Dendrite is still in beta, and hasn't been tuned that much yet, but every release has had a substantial improvement. In other words, if you're not using today's release (0.3.5) you're on stale data. For context, dendrite.matrix.org (running 0.3.5) has ~5K users on it, and is in ~3K rooms spanning 162K users... and its RAM usage is stable at 488MB (occasionally spiking to 2GB during traffic spikes). This doesn't seem unreasonable at all for a chat server of that size. Meanwhile, Synapse has been steadily improving too.

On the client side, Hydrogen (https://hydrogen.element.io, https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web) is our next-gen client implementation, which gives you full E2EE, complete with backup (I have no idea what Durov is banging on about in the OP) - and uses 14MB of RAM for an account in 3,000 rooms spanning 350K users (i.e. my personal one). This is an 100x improvement on Element Web which uses 1.4GB for the same account, although there's also a lot of optimisation that can be done there too.

If I was going to criticise Matrix, I'd focus more on the fact that there are still a lot of papercuts on Element's UX which are holding us back. We're painfully aware of this though and are trying to fix as rapidly as we can.

it’s a entirely new codebase; probably best way to visualise progress is to look at the contributor graphs at https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web