litefs VS marmot

Firstly, LiteJob's reliance on SQLite inherently restricts its horizontal scaling capabilities. Unlike other databases, SQLite is designed for single-machine use, making it challenging to distribute workload across multiple servers. This can certainly be done using novel technologies like LiteFS, but it is far from intuitive.

Im curious to know if others have tried out Turso or LiteFS or any of the newer edge db providers that are popping up in 'real world' applications and what your experiences have been?

Author here. I think we could have set better expectations with our Postgres docs. It wasn't meant to be a managed service but rather some tooling to help streamline setting up a database and replicas. I'm sorry about the troubles you've had and that it's come off as us being disingenuous. We blog about things that we're working on and find interesting. It's not meant say that we've figured everything out but rather this is what we've tried.

As for this post, it's not managed SQLite but rather an open source project called LiteFS [1]. You can run it anywhere that runs Linux. We use it in few places in our infrastructure and found that sharing the underlying database for internal tooling was really helpful for that use case.

[1]: https://github.com/superfly/litefs

#. SQLite WAL mode

From https://www.sqlite.org/isolation.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32247085 :

> [sqlite] WAL mode permits simultaneous readers and writers. It can do this because changes do not overwrite the original database file, but rather go into the separate write-ahead log file. That means that readers can continue to read the old, original, unaltered content from the original database file at the same time that the writer is appending to the write-ahead log

#. superfly/litefs: aFUSE-based file system for replicating SQLite https://github.com/superfly/litefs

#. sqldiff: https://www.sqlite.org/sqldiff.html https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31265005

#. dolthub/dolt: https://github.com/dolthub/dolt

> Dolt can be set up as a replica of your existing MySQL or MariaDB database using standard MySQL binlog replication. Every write becomes a Dolt commit. This is a great way to get the version control benefits of Dolt and keep an existing MySQL or MariaDB database.

#. pganalyze/libpg_query: https://github.com/pganalyze/libpg_query :

> C library for accessing the PostgreSQL parser outside of the server environment

#. Ibis + Substrait [ + DuckDB ]

> ibis strives to provide a consistent interface for interacting with a multitude of different analytical execution engines, most of which (but not all) speak some dialect of SQL.

> Today, Ibis accomplishes this with a lot of help from `sqlalchemy` and `sqlglot` to handle differences in dialect, or we interact directly with available Python bindings (for instance with the pandas, datafusion, and polars backends).

> [...] `Substrait` is a new cross-language serialization format for communicating (among other things) query plans. It's still in its early days, but there is already nascent support for Substrait in Apache Arrow, DuckDB, and Velox.

#. benbjohnson/postlite: https://github.com/benbjohnson/postlite

> postlite is a network proxy to allow access to remote SQLite databases over the Postgres wire protocol. This allows GUI tools to be used on remote SQLite databases which can make administration easier.

> The proxy works by translating Postgres frontend wire messages into SQLite transactions and converting results back into Postgres response wire messages. Many Postgres clients also inspect the pg_catalog to determine system information so Postlite mirrors this catalog by using an attached in-memory database with virtual tables. The proxy also performs minor rewriting on these system queries to convert them to usable SQLite syntax.

> Note: This software is in alpha. Please report bugs. Postlite doesn't alter your database unless you issue INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE commands so it's probably safe. If anything, the Postlite process may die but it shouldn't affect your database.

#. > "Hosting SQLite Databases on GitHub Pages" (2021) re: sql.js-httpvfs, DuckDB https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28021766

#. awesome-db-tools https://github.com/mgramin/awesome-db-tools

LiteFS works sorta like that. It provides read replicas on all your application servers so you can use it just like vanilla SQLite for queries.

Write transactions have to occur on the primary node but that's mostly because of latency. SQLite operates in serializable isolation so it only allows one transaction at a time. If you wanted to have all nodes write then you'd need to acquire a lock on one node and then update it and then release the lock. We actually allow this on LiteFS using something called "write forwarding" but it's pretty slow so I wouldn't suggest it for regular use.

We're adding an optional a query API over HTTP [1] soon as well. It's inspired by Turso's approach. That'll let you issue one or more queries in a batch over HTTP and they'll be run in a single transaction.

[1]: https://github.com/superfly/litefs/issues/326

Basically, LiteFS: https://github.com/superfly/litefs

And then some load balancer cleverness that reroutes writes to a specific VM: https://fly.io/blog/globally-distributed-postgres/

But my guess is they'll have an alternate implementation or something like LiteFS in Deno Deploy that will make this substantially more interesting when running in the Cloud.

If you're willing to accept eventual consistency (a big ask, but acceptable in some scenarios) then there are options like marmot [1] that replicate cdc over nats.

[1]: https://github.com/maxpert/marmot

I've written a whole SQLite replication system that works on top of RAFT ( https://github.com/maxpert/marmot ). Best part is RAFT has a well understood and strong library ecosystem as well. I started of with libraries and when I noticed I am reimplementing distributed streams, I just took off the shelf implementation (https://docs.nats.io/nats-concepts/jetstream) and embedded it in system. I love the simplicity and reasoning that comes with RAFT. However I am playing with epaxos these days (https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dga/papers/epaxos-sosp2013.pdf), because then I can truly decentralize the implementation for truly masterless implementation. Right now I've added sharding mechanism on various streams so that in high load cases masters can be distributed across nodes too.

Very interesting! I have question ( out of my experience in https://github.com/maxpert/marmot ) how do get around the boot time, specially when a change log of table is pretty large in Postgres? I've implemented snapshotting mechanism in Marmot as part of quickly getting up to speed. At some level I wonder if we can just feed this PG replication log into NATS cluster and Marmot can just replicate it across the board.

One of the reasons I started writing Marmot (https://maxpert.github.io/marmot/) was for replicating bunch of tables across regions that were read heavy. I even used it for cache replication (because who cares if it’s a cache miss, but a hit will save me time and money). It’s hard to make such blue prints in early days of product, and by the time you hit a true growth almost everyone builds a custom solution for multi-region IAM.

Amazing I was just looking for a good mail server to configure for my demo. Which reminds me since you folks have mentioned LiteStream, have you tried Marmot (https://github.com/maxpert/marmot); I recently configured Isso with Marmot to scale it out horizontally (https://maxpert.github.io/marmot/demo). I am super curious what kind of write workload on a sub thousand people organization will have and if Marmot can help scale it horizontally without Foundation DB. I always find the the convenience of SQLite amazing.

Great that you brought it up. I will fill in the perspective of what I am doing for solving this in Marmot (https://github.com/maxpert/marmot). Today Marmot already records changes via installing triggers to record changes of a table, hence all the offline changes (while Marmot is not running) are never lost. Today when Marmot comes up after a long offline (depending upon max_log_size configuration), it realizes that and tries to catch up changes via restoring a snapshot and then applying rest of logs from NATS (JetStream) change logs. I am working on change that will be publishing those change logs to NATS before it restores snapshots, and once it reapplies those changes after restoring snapshot everyone will have your changes + your DB will be up to date. Now in this case one of the things that bothers people is the fact that if two nodes coming up with conflicting rows the last writer wins.

For that I am also exploring on SQLite-Y-CRDT (https://github.com/maxpert/sqlite-y-crdt) which can help me treat each row as document, and then try to merge them. I personally think CRDT gets harder to reason sometimes, and might not be explainable to an entry level developers. Usually when something is hard to reason and explain, I prefer sticking to simplicity. People IMO will be much more comfortable knowing they can't use auto incrementing IDs for particular tables (because two independent nodes can increment counter to same values) vs here is a magical way to merge that will mess up your data.