Ory Keto VS spicedb

One of Ory’s core competencies is permissions. We built the first Google Zanzibar implementation in the world and it’s part of Ory Network‘s global multi-region platform (https://github.com/ory/keto)

A push model is also valid if you’re heavy on policies and can accept eventual consistency. We will investigate how to generally push things to the edge (like we did with Ory Edge Sessions) or to cryptographic verification wherever staleness is acceptable.

By solving the primitives correctly in the beginning (with a multi region architecture) that job does become a lot easier, which is what we decided doing at Ory :)

slightly off-topic, but related to what ory is doing in general. How do you usually do authorization-aware search?

Imagine, I have a bunch of Google docs and using https://github.com/ory/keto for authorization. I can quickly answer the question "does user X have access to document Y", but it is not easy to do "search all documents with word Hello in it, for which I have access" because access can be granted through nested groups (give read access to everyone in DepartmentA, and I am part of child department)

if you want to integrate an existing framework see if https://github.com/ory/keto solves your problems, there are similiar frameworks that support ABAC

Shameless plug for Ory Keto, probably the best reference implementation IMO https://github.com/ory/keto

Looks cool, wonder how it compares to Keto and Casbin.

How does Warrant compare to other Zanzibar based solutions like Ory Keto ?https://github.com/ory/keto

Interesting to see another project open sourced around Google Zanzibar. On a timeline for context:

- Ory came out first with Ory Keto ( https://github.com/ory/keto ) which is trying to be a close adaptation of the paper. Initially, many concepts were missing but they are making a lot of progress with the DSL and it interfaces with the rest of Ory (OAuth2, User Mangement)

- Authzed came out as a SaaS only, open sorucing the code base later on at https://github.com/authzed/spicedb

- Auth0 has been playing around with Zanzibar concepts in various forms and published a beta service at https://dashboard.fga.dev - apparently now also open source parts of it similar to what Authzed did: https://github.com/openfga

- Permify - who on a side note spammed me quite a lot with outreach because I was active in these communities - joins as well https://github.com/Permify/permify

It's exciting to see so much movement, yet also sad that so many companies are brewing their own beer instead of working collaborative on the more succesful projects. Feels like we'll just end up with one or two successful projects (looking at Ory / Auth0 here) with the rest perishing. I'm wondering if there truly is a business model for just this permission system as a saas service (looks like this is what everyone is going with). Here I'm giving Auth0 probably the biggest plus as they have an established identity service. Then again, Okta (parent of Auth0) and Auth0 themselves are not particularly known for good business practices that we usually expect from developer tooling.

What's refreshing though with Permify is that they are trying a bit of a different approach to Zanzibar!

Er, Ory Keto is written in Go.

Have you taken a look at SpiceDB? The Authzed blog has a few posts that are useful to improving your understanding -- I can think of two: New Enemies and Writing relationships to SpiceDB.

Things I can't live without in a new Go project in no particular order:

- https://github.com/golangci/golangci-lint - meta-linter

- https://goreleaser.com - automate release workflows

- https://magefile.org - build tool that can version your tools

- https://github.com/ory/dockertest/v3 - run containers for e2e testing

- https://github.com/ecordell/optgen - generate functional options

- https://golang.org/x/tools/cmd/stringer - generate String()

- https://mvdan.cc/gofumpt - stricter gofmt

- https://github.com/stretchr/testify - test assertion library

- https://github.com/rs/zerolog - logging

- https://github.com/spf13/cobra - CLI framework

FWIW, I just lifted all the tools we use for https://github.com/authzed/spicedb

We've also written some custom linters that might be useful for other folks: https://github.com/authzed/spicedb/tree/main/tools/analyzers

At AuthZed, we think about this topic regularly while developing SpiceDB[0], except we believe feature flags are a subset of authorization. I'd disagree with the author that permissions are always long-lived -- authorization can also be ephemeral (and often that's how it's most secure) or dependent on run-time context[1]. What's more, using SpiceDB, we can often collapse checking for authorization and feature-flags into a single round-trip by defining a permission that can additionally require a feature flag (e.g. permission = admin & has_feature_flag).

It's a little silly, but lots of folks ask for the moon when it comes to performance for authorization because it's critical to every request, but then go on and sprinkle a dozen feature flag RPCs each adding more and more latency. We think you should be able to have both.

What we're excited about is use cases beyond feature flags and authorization: we've also seen some folks use SpiceDB as an update graph or others as a dependency graph.

[0]: https://github.com/authzed/spicedb

[1]: https://authzed.com/blog/caveats/

It scaled well compared to a naive graph abstraction implemented outside the database, but when performance wasn't great, it REALLY wasn't great. We ended up throwing it out in later versions to try and get more consistent performance.

I've since worked on SpiceDB[1] which takes the traditional design approach for graph databases and simply treating Postgres as triple-store and that scales far better. IME, if you need a graph, you probably want to use a database optimized for graph access patterns. Most general-purpose graph databases are just bags of optimizations for common traversals.

[0]: https://github.com/quay/clair

[1]: https://github.com/authzed/spicedb

I get the sentiment. We held off on building an operator until we felt there was actually value in doing so (for the most part, Deployments cover the operational needs pretty well).

Migrations can be run in containers (and they are, even with the operator), but it's actually a lot of work to run them at the right time, only once, with the right flags, in the right order, waiting for SpiceDB to reach a specific spot in a phased migrations, etc.

Moving from v1.13.0 to v1.14.0 of SpiceDB requires a multi-phase migration to avoid downtime[0], as could any phased migration for any stateful workload. The operator will walk you through them correctly, without intervention. Users who aren't running on Kubernetes or aren't using the operator often have problems running these steps correctly.

The value is in this automation, but also in the API interface itself. RDS is just some automation and an API on top of EC2, and I think RDS has value over running postgres on EC2 myself directly.

As for helm charts, this is just my opinion, but I don't think they're a good way to distribute software to end users. The interface for a helm chart becomes polluted over time in the same way that most operator APIs become polluted over time, as more and more configuration is pulled up to the top. I think helm is better suited to managing configuration you write yourself to deploy on your own clusters (I realize I'm in the minority here).

[0]: https://github.com/authzed/spicedb/releases/tag/v1.14.0

To my understanding, the only ReBAC system that supports dynamic attributes is SpiceDB.

If you're curious to see a Postgres-based implementation, SpiceDB has a Postgres driver: https://github.com/authzed/spicedb/tree/main/internal/datast...

Interesting, for SpiceDB[0], one place we've struggled with MySQL is preemptively establishing connections in the pool so that it's always full. PGX[1] has been fantastic for Postgres and CockroachDB, but I haven't found something with enough control for MySQL.

[0]: https://github.com/authzed/spicedb