ircv3-ideas VS matrix-spec-proposals

> "At least as standard" how?

There are 8 people who vote on changes to the Matrix spec (the Spec Core Team), 7 of which are Element employees (including Matthew, Element's CEO). Element also controls the development of clients and servers used by the large majority of users in the public federation.

> A substantial portion of the IRC comunity is actively hostile to the IRCv3 extensions, and in some cases prefer incompatible implementations of the same functionality; Matrix has nothing like that going on.

But any IRC client will work fine on any IRC server, and they can connect to various servers with different implementations.

On Matrix, clients (generally) can only connect to one homeserver at a time; which forces them to converge on following exactly the same spec. And if your server differs ever so slightly from the other ones in how it implements some parts of the spec (room consensus), then it can be split-brained from the rest of the federation. Instead, changes to the room consensus are done by pushing new room versions, and each server implementation needs to explicitly support it or they can't join it. This means Synapse devs (which are a majority of Element employees) get to decide what room versions can get traction.

It is not uncommon for people in the Matrix community to complain about this and Element keeping specs in limbo, and PRs to the flagship clients being stuck in "design review tar".

> And there seem to be more visibly independent implementations of Matrix than IRCv3.

Clients, maybe, at least in the number of implementation. It's hard to find stats of this, but I feel that >95% of people in the public federation use Element even in tech-y rooms; IRC has a healthier mix of major clients (weechat, irssi, IRCCloud, Hexchat, KiwiIRC, The Lounge each have >5% of desktop/web users). But I admit that's just my very subjective point of view.

In terms of servers, Matrix has three open source ones as far as I know: Synapse (controlled by Element), Dendrite (controlled by Element, and almost on par with Synapse according to https://arewep2pyet.com/ ), and Conduit. Based on https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit/-/milestones/3 , Conduit seems to be far from implementing the spec yet (eg. it doesn't seem to support leaving rooms or respecting history visibility).

> things like: server-side history extensions tended to mess up my client's history implementation (I'd end up with multiple copies of the same messages in my local logs, often with the wrong timestamps)

You can use https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/message-ids to deduplicate them.

> And if you're in a conversation where people are using embedded gifs, then fundamentally you'll always be a second-class citizen if you're trying to participate in that with a client that can't display embedded gifs.

A conversation where people where people are using embedded gifs will exclude me regardless of client, because they are too distracting. At least on IRC I can expect people not to do it too much, and use words or emojis instead of reaction gifs.

> SSO access control; you just can't do that in a nice way if the client doesn't support it

That's a fair point; IRC is made by hobbyists more than companies, so that's not surprising. There is some discussion around it though: https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-ideas/issues/74 and Sourcehut is sponsoring implementation (https://emersion.fr/blog/2022/irc-and-oauth2/).

Not only are they actually very closely linked, in that Element operates matrix.org, but to a new user (told to try Matrix -- what is this Element thing?) there's no difference.

I onboarded a family member onto my Matrix server with FluffyChat as the client. This person is a power user, fairly technical, yet still refers to the chat as "FluffyChat" and although I've explained several times that choosing FluffyChat was maybe a mistake and they should use Element, it never seems to really click that multiple clients are possible.

And really, they aren't possible. They have different subsets of features.

If you want to see a trash can fire, just try to follow the discussion for adding custom emoji to Matrix: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/195...

it's been going on for years. It's a feature the competitors have had for half a decade, as long as this discussion has been ongoing. I've been watching this issue for half a decade thinking "surely they'll decide on something" but mostly all I've been convinced of is this: Matrix is design by committee in all of the worst aspects and at every level of design. If anything gets done at all, it's a convoluted mess, and it's a miracle that it even happens.

I wish community software developers would focus their attention.. somewhere else.

So Matrix also has account portability (almost) - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/keg... and https://github.com/devonh/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/cryptoI..., implemented in Dendrite. Unfortunately dev is paused on it currently thanks to lack of $ though.

The AP approach (prioritising portable identities over portable account data) is cute though, and perhaps we should have prioritised that as an alternative to fullblown cryptographic IDs & account portability.

Luckily, it doesn't matter what individuals expect. There is written documentation on what the foundation is supposed to do or not to do: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/mai...

Notably, "Code Core Team members must arrange their own funding for their time", which I understand as such that the Foundation does not pay directly the developers (same as other standards organizations like IETF).

Main tasks of Matrix.org Foundation is maintaining the spec, documentation, owning IP, promotion and the matrix.org home server. The home server is "generously hosted" by UpCloud (i.e. is not using New Vector EMS), at least according to the matrix.org website.

Looking again at MSC1779, I noticed it says that one function of The Matrix.org Foundation is "Owns the copyright of the reference implementations of Matrix (i.e. everything in https://github.com/matrix-org). By assigning copyright to the Foundation, it’s protected against New Vector ever being tempted to relicense it." That protection apparently wasn't very effective, but also notably, New Vector and their leadership clearly have shown to not stand behind the goals of the Foundation. As the leadership of New Vector is also part of the leadership of the Foundation, I see some huge potential for COI here.

The main remaining Nebuchadnezzar issue is mitigating server-controlled group membership. The first step has been to kill off the 1st gen E2EE implementations, which were responsible for the implementation vulns found by RHUL - and we should hopefully conclude that next week by moving everything into the matrix-rust-sdk crypto create implmentation: https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/21972#issuec... is the tracker.

Then, we can address the harder server-controlled group membership issue in one place. First step will be to improve device verification & trust so that trust is the default, not the exception, to make it easier to spot and warn about unexpected devices in the room. The full solution is then either MSC3917 (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/fay...) - or potentially to switch everything to MLS.

We're working on MLS anyway in parallel to RHUL mitigation work; you can see the progress at https://arewemlsyet.com, and it's looking good.

I'm guessing you're not interested in doing a podcast on "yay we converged our crypto implementations on a single robust Rust implementation so we can fix the remaining bugs in one place", but as soon as the server-controlled group membership thing is solved we'll be in touch. Work has also gone much slower than hoped on this, thanks to the joys of funding open source.

https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/keg... is how we’re doing it, and it’s being implemented currently in Dendrite.

Matrix already has key-based identity in the works at https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/keg... (and implemented in Dendrite at https://github.com/matrix-org/dendrite/pulls?q=is%3Apr+is%3A...). Matrix is set up to let folks go wild and change fundamentals like this; basically every Matrix Spec Change (MSC) is a small fork, which then gets merged into the main spec if it can be proven to work well in the wild.

Gitter seems to have moved to being a Matrix instance (or maybe it always has? it didn't look like Matrix when I used it circa 2016), but matrix feels half-baked and is just a bunch of hacks put together. For example

- Can't "mark all as read" on a space. probably because rooms within a space are only tangentially related,

- No custom emojis or sticker packs (their proposal for this is to create rooms to house custom emojis/sticker packs[0])

Not a great bet to go to keybase with the Zoom acquisition https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28814210

0: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/195...

We’re currently working on account portability (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/401...) and experimenting with glueing bluesky style DIDs onto it (so as to provide DMs for bluesky via Matrix, should they want them)

slow moving but there is discussions https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/1998