hydrogen-web VS convos

Yes! See https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web/releases/tag/v0.3....

I think you're right, the experience of element on Android isn't great, I use mostly the web app that seems to get more attention and doesn't feel as sluggish. But to bring some hope, I think this will change soon-ish. The Matrix ecosystem has been in kind of a MVP state for several years, the focus was more on the protocol/APIs and not so much on the performance that translates in user experience. But efforts are on the way to improve all of this, on the client side there are several projects working on other clients that might be more performant, including the company behind Element, they have a work-in-progress lightweight client https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web On the server side most servers run Synapse which is written in Python without much though for performance or scalability but there are faster/lighter alternatives on the way like Dendrite or Conduit. It also doesn't help that most accounts are in the same overcrowded Synapse server(matrix.org), overtime it should become more common to have more alternatives and people even running their home server embedded in their device.

It’s using normal Matrix olm/megolm double ratchet encryption.

To track the identity of who you’re talking to we can do TOFU and/or normal out of band Matrix verification as per https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web/issues/518 - but this isn’t yet exposed in Chatterbox. We’ll get it added, as without verification you obviously can’t spot a MITM.

You can use this web app to access the chat. Join the #general channel. https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web

Hydrogen's installation process was pretty much exactly the same as Element, the github README was just a lot less specific and there is no config file so you have to edit the HTML directly to get it to point to your site instead of matrix.org by default.

> I'm rather convinced at this point that all of these people chanting "Can we just go back to traditional approaches!" have never built a web app of reasonable complexity, never used something like React, or have some sort of combination of FOMO and/or comfort in their long-held approach.

I've got plenty of React & front-end experience and vastly prefer a thin library on top of the DOM than something like React, also for large applications. React is ok if all goes well, but when you have to debug or profile something, all the complexity behind the scenes occludes what you are looking for. Most of the time, people want JSX so you need a transpiler. Also keeping up with changes in new React releases seems like a lot of lost time.

I've been building [1] without a transpiler and just a 600 lines template library (see [2]), and it has been such a breath of fresh air. The fact that there is so little code between you and the browser makes it very easy to see what is going on. Call stacks of max around 15 frames.

It sounds like you are comparing React to jquery code without components, and I justed wanted to highlight that DOM APIs have evolved since those days, and that you don't need a library like React to structure your code.

React has popularized good ideas in front-end development, like components, but I think the complexity cost of a virtual DOM is often underestimated.

1: https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web/

Matrix's resource utilisation is improving very rapidly at the moment.

Dendrite is still in beta, and hasn't been tuned that much yet, but every release has had a substantial improvement. In other words, if you're not using today's release (0.3.5) you're on stale data. For context, dendrite.matrix.org (running 0.3.5) has ~5K users on it, and is in ~3K rooms spanning 162K users... and its RAM usage is stable at 488MB (occasionally spiking to 2GB during traffic spikes). This doesn't seem unreasonable at all for a chat server of that size. Meanwhile, Synapse has been steadily improving too.

On the client side, Hydrogen (https://hydrogen.element.io, https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web) is our next-gen client implementation, which gives you full E2EE, complete with backup (I have no idea what Durov is banging on about in the OP) - and uses 14MB of RAM for an account in 3,000 rooms spanning 350K users (i.e. my personal one). This is an 100x improvement on Element Web which uses 1.4GB for the same account, although there's also a lot of optimisation that can be done there too.

If I was going to criticise Matrix, I'd focus more on the fact that there are still a lot of papercuts on Element's UX which are holding us back. We're painfully aware of this though and are trying to fix as rapidly as we can.

it’s a entirely new codebase; probably best way to visualise progress is to look at the contributor graphs at https://github.com/vector-im/hydrogen-web

Excellent idea! You'll have a mature, open standard protocol under the hood, with no vendor lock-in, excellent extensibility, and great modern frontends like The Lounge (https://thelounge.chat/) or Convos (https://convos.chat/) to choose from (and you can choose).

And UnrealIRCD still rocks. For a quick-and-dirty setup I've deploy ng-ircd but Unreal has always been my go-to for anything serious. If nothing else it can be useful as a backup or internal platform during the rare events that Slack or Discord are having an incident. The common complaint is a lack of channel back-log but it can be front-ended with TheLounge [1] or Convos [2]. I personally prefer to handle that with gnu screen or tmux and WeeChat [3].

[1] - https://github.com/thelounge

[2] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/

[3] - https://weechat.org/

For the other layers one can front-end IRC with TheLounge [1][2] or Convos [3][4]. TheLounge only persists history in private mode meaning that users are created in that front-end and chat messages are in Redis. For small networks or groups of friends this is probably fine.

Notably missing is voice chat. I use the Mumble client [5] with the Murmur or uMurmur [6] server which is light-weight enough to run on ones home router. I use it on Alpine Linux, works great. It's not a shiny and attention grabbing as Discord but probably fine for everyone else. For people to create their own voice channels would require the full-blown Murmur server.

[1] - https://github.com/thelounge

[2] - https://thelounge.chat/

[3] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/

[4] - https://convos.chat/

[5] - https://www.mumble.info/

[6] - https://github.com/umurmur/umurmur/wiki/Configuration

FWIW TheLounge [1] and Convos [2] can front-end an IRC server giving it much of the look of a modern client and also chat persistence when using TheLounge in private mode. The trade-off in my opinion is scalability. With a bog standard IRCD I can handle tens of thousands of clients per node. Adding web persistent chat adds memory usage.

[1] - https://github.com/thelounge https://thelounge.chat/

[2] - https://github.com/convos-chat/convos/ https://convos.chat/

IRC is a mature, extensible, open protocol, with a wide variety of server and client implementations to suit many use cases, servers can be self-hosted and federated, and modern web-based clients like The Lounge or Convos offer a user experience equivalent to Discord, Slack, etc.

Standard IRC with a web interface like The Lounge or Convos

And there are some great web-based clients like the Lounge and Convos that offer an equivalent UX to Discord or Slack, are open-source, self-hostable, and based on a mature, reliable, and extensible open protocol.

Take a look at convos to see if it fits your needs: https://convos.chat/

There are web front-ends to IRC that can mitigate message loss without having to run bouncers. Convos [1] and TheLounge [2] come to mind but there are others [3]

[1] - https://convos.chat/

[2] - https://thelounge.chat/

[3] - https://www.ilmarilauhakangas.fi/irc_technology_news_from_th...