dhall-lang
starlark
dhall-lang | starlark | |
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113 | 22 | |
4,137 | 2,238 | |
0.2% | 1.9% | |
6.0 | 4.1 | |
2 months ago | 3 days ago | |
Dhall | Starlark | |
BSD 3-clause "New" or "Revised" License | Apache License 2.0 |
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dhall-lang
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Apple releases Pkl – onfiguration as code language
Fail to see how this is any different than Dhall (https://dhall-lang.org/) other than it produces plists too.
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Pkl, a Programming Language for Configuration
Kubernetes config is a decent example. I had ChatGPT generate a representative silly example -- the content doesn't matter so much as the structure:
https://gist.github.com/cstrahan/528b00cd5c3a22e3d8f057bb1a7...
Now consider 100s (if not 1000s) of such files.
I haven't given Pkl an in depth look yet, but I can say that the Industry Standard™ of "simple YAML" + string substitution (with delicate, error prone indentation -- since YAML is indentation sensitive) is easily beat by any of:
- https://jsonnet.org/
- https://nickel-lang.org/
- https://nixos.org/manual/nix/stable/language/index.html
- https://dhall-lang.org/
- (insert many more here, probably including Pkl)
- Why the fuck are we templating YAML? (2019)
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Is Htmx Just Another JavaScript Framework?
There are underpowered languages / tools, that can only solve a problem for which they are intended poorly. But not all limited tools are like that.
Say, eBPF is prominently not Turing-complete, which allows to guarantee that a eBPF program terminates, and even how soon. Still eBPF is hugely useful in its area.
Or, say, regular expressions are limited to regular languages; in particular, they famously [1] cannot process recursive structures, like trees. Still tools like grep / ag / rg are mightily useful.
Yes, I agree that YAML is underpowered for proper k8s configuration! But it's also too powerful for its own good in other aspects [2]. I wish Google used Dhall [3] or their own purely functional config language (FCL? I already forgot the name) instead of YAML; sadly, they did not.
[1]: https://stackoverflow.com/a/1732454/223424
[2]: https://ruudvanasseldonk.com/2023/01/11/the-yaml-document-fr...
[3]: https://dhall-lang.org/
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10 Ways for Kubernetes Declarative Configuration Management
Dhall: Dhall is a programmable configuration language that combines features like JSON, functions, types, and import capabilities. Its style leans towards functional programming, so if you're familiar with functional-style languages such as Haskell, you might find Dhall to be quite intuitive.
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Berry is a ultra-lightweight dynamically typed embedded scripting language
I've been thinking along these lines but more 'strongly validated' than statically typed in the sense that you'd be better off being able to load the entire config and then produce a list of problems (and should be able to offer good editor support if done correctly).
Though https://dhall-lang.org/ demonstrates that you can statically type quite a lot of configuration to great advantage, which appears to be programmatically embeddable in multiple languages per https://docs.dhall-lang.org/howtos/How-to-integrate-Dhall.ht...
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What Is the Point of Decidability
> Where practical is in the sense of an engineer (or in their terms, a CS practitioner),
Configuration processing. E.g. I'd like my yamls to be decidable, though I'd settle for guaranteed to halt[1].
[1] https://dhall-lang.org/
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What Is Wrong with TOML?
Maybe you'd like jsonnet: https://jsonnet.org/
I find it particularly useful for configurations that often have repeated boilerplate, like ansible playbooks or deploying a bunch of "similar-but" services to kubernetes (with https://tanka.dev).
Dhall is also quite interesting, with some tradeoffs: https://dhall-lang.org/
A few years ago I did a small comparison by re-implementing one of my simpler ansible playbooks: https://github.com/retzkek/ansible-dhall-jsonnet
- Show HN: FlakeHub – Discover and publish Nix flakes
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Home Blog Better configuration languages – A talk about Dhall [video]
And to checkout Dhall: https://dhall-lang.org/
starlark
- (The) Starlark Language
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Apple releases Pkl – onfiguration as code language
The implementations and users page mentioned above:
https://github.com/bazelbuild/starlark/blob/master/users.md
- Language design of Starlark (compared to Python)
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10 Ways for Kubernetes Declarative Configuration Management
Starlark: Starlark is a language for describing build transformations, inspired by Python, but with features that make it suitable for embedding in software like Bazel. It can be used for configuration generation due to its capability for deterministic evaluation and expressing complex build transformations.
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How Big Should a Programming Language Be?
In the design of Starlark (https://github.com/bazelbuild/starlark), I often had to push back against new feature requests to keep the language simple. I explicitly listed simplicity as a design goal.i
Of course, the scope of the language is not the same as general purpose languages, but there's always pressure from the users to add more things. I also think many people underestimate the cost of adding new features: it's not just about adding the code in every compiler/interpreter, specifying every edge-case in a spec, updating all the tooling for the language and writing tutorials; it's also a cost on everyone who will have to read any of the code.
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Launch HN: Moonrepo (YC W23) – Open-source build system
one of the benefits of starlark (unlike python): "Starlark is suitable for use in highly parallel applications. An application may invoke the Starlark interpreter concurrently from many threads, without the possibility of a data race, because shared data structures become immutable due to freezing." from https://github.com/bazelbuild/starlark/blob/master/spec.md - it's not python, you can't do recursion (!) and it's more limited (you can't read a file in bazel, and parse it, you have to make this operation into the graph somehow)
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When to use Bazel?
You can do the same in Bazel which uses Starlark for its BUILD files. Starlark is a dialect of Python so it makes it super easy to work with.
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[P] Docker alternative for AI/ML
Make sense. We do not use Python actually, the build language is starlark, which is the config lang used by bazel. https://github.com/bazelbuild/starlark
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The Dhall Configuration Language
Have you seen Starlark? It's not too far from that, but safer in a number of ways: https://github.com/bazelbuild/starlark
- What change should Python 4 bring, in your opinion?
What are some alternatives?
cue - CUE has moved to https://github.com/cue-lang/cue
yaml-reference-parser
jsonnet - Jsonnet - The data templating language
dhall - Maintainable configuration files
cue - The home of the CUE language! Validate and define text-based and dynamic configuration
dhall-kubernetes - Typecheck, template and modularize your Kubernetes definitions with Dhall
terraform - Terraform enables you to safely and predictably create, change, and improve infrastructure. It is a source-available tool that codifies APIs into declarative configuration files that can be shared amongst team members, treated as code, edited, reviewed, and versioned.
starlark-go - Starlark in Go: the Starlark configuration language, implemented in Go
jsonlogic - Go Lang implementation of JsonLogic
openapi-python-client - Generate modern Python clients from OpenAPI
nix-gui - Use NixOS Without Coding
cdk8s - Define Kubernetes native apps and abstractions using object-oriented programming