dhall-kubernetes VS porter

I hate yaml with a passion. It marginally better than xml for reading (wins huge on comment syntax) and worse for everything else. It makes zero sense we somehow ended up with it as standard configuration serialization format.

Note yaml is not a DSL. It's a tree serialization format! Everything interesting is happening after it is parsed. Extreme examples point to e.g. github actions conditions.

Anyway, back on topic - maybe not prolog for CDK, but still quite interesting: Dhall-kubernetes - https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes

At this point, if it’s painful enough, why isn’t compiling-to-yml tools more popular?

Example: https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes

Haven’t used dhall myself but I’d definitely prefer a DSL on top of yaml.

Dhall provides https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes which is exactly this: statically type-checked kubernetes config generation.

Dhall is my favorite configuration language that I never get around to using.

I manage DNS in Terraform, and since every Terraform provider uses different objects definitions, and every object definition is rather verbose, Dhall would be a way to specify my own DRY types and leave the provider-specific details in one place. Adding new DNS entries and moving several domains between providers would be a matter of changing fewer lines.

Dhall also has Kubernetes bindings:

https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes

Although I'm tempted to just stick to Helm here, even though it's less type-safe.

Not Helm directly, but does something like Dhall fit your question? https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes

Have you heard about Dhall? It’s a programming language used for generating configuration files for a variety of purposes. One of them is to replace old and limited formats such as JSON and YAML. It is DRYable, secure, and even suitable for creating K8s manifests. The latter option isn’t something for anyone: you have to learn a new language and deal with its peculiarities, but it might be really helpful when you have tons of YAML configs. I’ve recently made a short intro to Dhall for K8s in this review.

Best thing is Dhall that I am aware of. Same situation, working as a consultant, forced to use broken things.

https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes

Lets look at a specific example. Take Kubernetes: everything is yaml, with complete schemas, all the way down. From your perspective this is configuration utopia, right? Meanwhile back in reality k8s is the poster child of "yaml hell". From the day it was released, people took one look at it, gave it a giant NOPE and instantly spawned half a dozen templating languages. The most popular of these is helm, which has a terrible, no good, very bad design: full of potential injection attacks from purely textual string substitution, manually specified indentation to embed parameterized blocks, virtually no intermediate validation, no way to validate unused features, etc etc

Compare to dhall which publishes a complete set of dhall-k8s schema mappings which enables you to factor out any design you want down to as few configuration variables as you like, while validating the configuration generators themselves at design time. https://github.com/dhall-lang/dhall-kubernetes#more-modular-...

The solution I like is Dhall. They even have a Kubernetes solution that will catch a lot of issues at compile-time, before you try to apply it to Kubernetes. At earthly we aren't actually using it though. Our Kubernetes guru found it to be a bit slow but I am hopeful it or something like it will be the future.

This is just a concept. AFAIK only one implemented this concept is Microsoft's project porter: https://github.com/getporter/porter

For porter I am talking about this project https://porter.run/ and NOT this https://porter.sh/

Porter

As far as I know the tool is used at least in Microsoft. The classic use case is where you want to install an application and also define the infrastructure as well (i.e cluster + db + lb + app). You can see the examples here https://github.com/getporter/porter/tree/main/examples

Check https://cnab.io/ and https://porter.sh/

I'm closely tracking an effort by Microsoft that aims to do a lot of what you're describing since I find myself bridging between these tools and deploying stacks that span tools and roles. [CNAB](https://cnab.io/) and the front-running implementation, [Porter](https://porter.sh/), enable one-step infra deployments, packaged as a single OCI-compatible container, with any number of steps, using the best tools for each of those steps. Think of using aws-cli for some initialization step (create or verify presence of a state bucket), applying some terraform to create infra, and finishing with a helm chart to complete deployment of app components. Each stage in a bundle packages not only the code to run it but also the execution binary of the tool that runs it. The spec and porter are still a moving target but it's a promising space and a nice adjacent evolution of the current state of tooling.

Cool, it's great to know that it isn't abandoned.

I'm not sure why you'd say that their business model was a success. They were bought by Microsoft for Azure. I guess I wonder if a PaaS company can survive without getting the profits off renting the machines to people. Amazon, Google, and Microsoft all have PaaS options based around the idea that it comes bundled with the compute, not as a standalone open-source thing for you to use on any platform.

I guess the question is whether Porter's business plan is "make enough that a company that owns a cloud wants to buy us". Oracle could probably use a nice PaaS platform and team. Maybe DigitalOcean would like to beef up their PaaS offering by acqui-hiring a team with proven knowledge.

Poking around https://deislabs.io, it's interesting to see that they have a project called "Porter" which seems to be unrelated to the "Porter" being launched here: https://porter.sh. They aren't quite the same, but they both have "easily run your app" goals.

There is already this from Microsoft https://github.com/getporter/porter