devenv VS Podman Desktop

I gave devenv multiple tries, and I am sorry to say there are multiple annoying issues that forced me to give up every time.

Some of these 200+ issues are unsolved for a fairly long time.

https://github.com/cachix/devenv/issues

Software developers often want to customize:

1. their home environments: for packages (some reach for brew on MacOS) and configurations (dotfiles, and some reach for stow).

2. their development shells: for build dependencies (compilers, SDKs, libraries), tools (LSP, linters, formatters, debuggers), and services (runtime, database). Some reach for devcontainers here.

3. or even their operating systems: for development, for CI, for deployment, or for personal use.

Nix provision all of the above in the same language, with Nixpkgs, NixOS, home-manager, and devShells such as https://devenv.sh/. What's more, Nix is (https://nixos.org/):

- reproducible: what works on your dev machine also works in CI in prod,

- declarative: you version control and review your configurations and infrastructure as code, at a reasonable level of abstraction,

- reliable: all changes are atomic with easy roll back.

https://devenv.sh/ and nix in general are great for setting up dev environments.

> but worried that the development is not moving forward

There is an open v1.0 PR: https://github.com/cachix/devenv/pull/1005

2) A way to run services apps depend on (databases, job runners, cache etc).

I am going to suggest one of the Nix based tools that do those things:

  - https://devenv.sh/ (I use this at work)

Yup, I haven’t tried it but there is https://devenv.sh which is built on top of nix and makes it simple.

Although Guix reads better than Nix (after all, it's Lisp), I found the support and resources available for learning severely lacking.

Plus, you have to jump through hoops to install non-free software, which goes against the ethos of Guix anyway.

IMHO, Nix is clearly "the winner" here and we'll see more and more adoption as it improves. Lots of folks are doing exciting work (see https://determinate.systems/, https://devenv.sh/, https://flakehub.com/). And the scale and organization around nixpkgs is damn impressive.

I don't think you can ever get Nix as simple as PNPM, simply because native libraries are sometimes annoying, need to be configured at build time to a greater degree and because the problem space it attacks is so much larger than PNPM, which only deals with the JS/Node.js ecosystem.

However, I do think that there exist reasonable levels of abstraction that sacrifice some expressive power for simplicity and such systems could maybe expose a PNPM-like CLI. One example that comes to mind is devenv.nix [1]. While it doesn't yet have a CLI, its configuration file is YAML and relatively simple. I think there's more to be done in this space and I hope for tools that are easier to grasp in the future.

> Nix package files evaluate down to configuration for the Nix package manager, but I haven’t ever seen a good explanation for the basic essentials underneath all the abstraction. Every guide I’ve learned from and all the package defs I’ve read seem to cargo cult many layers of mysterious config composing config. Without easy to learn essentials it’s difficult to grok the system as a whole.

To me it sounds like the essential that you're referring to is the 'derivation' primitive, which is almost always hidden behind the mkDerivation abstraction from nixpkgs. This [2] blog post is an exploration of what exactly that means.

I'd also love for the documentation situation to be much better, in particular in terms of official, curated resources. But I'm not convinced that you actually need to know the difference between derivation and mkDerivation to make effective use of Nix, because in practice you would always use the latter. That said, mkDerivation and the whole of nixpkgs is essentially a huge DSL (I believe this is what you meant when you said 'config composing config') that you do need to know and is woefully underdocumented.

> I would love to adopt Nix for developer tooling for Notion’s engineers, but today it’s about infinity times easier to work around the limitations mentioned of Docker+Ubuntu+NPM than to work around the limitations of Nix.

One approach I have taken to is to specify the environment in Nix, but then generate Docker devcontainers from it, so most people don't come into contact with Nix if they don't want to.

[1] https://devenv.sh

[2] https://ianthehenry.com/posts/how-to-learn-nix/derivations/

This though, through the use of devenv.sh, which uses nix, as when I got into nix I though it was going to be easier to just make a development environment, not the case. Until I found devenv.sh, I could actually finally make good environments... It also has other features like containers and services, which also help me know that I can get the most of it if the time comes.

Instructions: https://github.com/cachix/devenv/pull/745

A new, search-driven command palette is now available to enable quick access to various commands available across 🦭 Podman Desktop. You can try this new tool out by hitting the F1 key. #4081 && #3979

Please share this experience and what went wrong with the postman team. It is the only way things can improve.

You don’t have to solve the problem. Just state your problem. If you need inspiration, here is an example: https://github.com/containers/podman-desktop/issues/868

I wanted to try a while ago so I downloaded Podman Desktop, but I couldn't get past the initial setup due to issues in the desktop app. I was able to reproduce this on two or three Macs, can't recall exactly.

It has been a long-standing issue but seems as though it is on its way to resolution: https://github.com/containers/podman-desktop/issues/1633.

I am waiting for a few months to make sure it is all sorted and will try again to see if it works then.

I'm not happy with Podman Desktop's Svelte GUI.

Antd or MUI (React) feel much more mature.

But they are working on it.

https://github.com/containers/podman-desktop/pull/2863

I don't know if that's really a core difference from podman. Assuming I track your meaning Podman has GUI management as well and it can be made to integrate with system and can produce Kubernetes manifests from the pods you define locally.

Optional extensions will follow their own lifecycle and update independently from Podman Desktop. As of this release you'll be able to see when there is an update available and install from within Podman Desktop #2655.

Podman Desktop 0.15 embeds Podman 4.5 in Windows and macOS installers #2115.

u/Chunkypewpewpew it's karpersky that has a false positive https://github.com/containers/podman-desktop/issues/700

Podman Desktop has a new release: you can check milestone v0.11.0 and Release Notes

> docker desktop is pretty dead now that it's got restrictive licensing etc...

It would probably be nice to hear more about why you think this is! I've certainly heard of some having to move away from Docker Desktop.

However, at the scale where you need a license (250 employees or 10 million $ in annual revenue) it's not quite as big of an issue, especially at their current pricing per seat: https://www.docker.com/pricing/

> stick to standard open source tools like Colima etc...

Sticking to open source is a great idea!

I think mentioning that Colima runs on macOS and Linux only at the moment is also a good idea: https://github.com/abiosoft/colima

A large market share of the Docker Desktop installs are Windows in particular (since it's "the one way" how most install Docker nowadays, as opposed to not really needing a GUI or the supporting tools on Linux).

In another comment I mentioned Podman Desktop as a mostly viable alternative: https://github.com/containers/podman-desktop

Then there's also Rancher Desktop as well: https://github.com/rancher-sandbox/rancher-desktop

Regardless, it's nice to see reputable orgs behind the open source projects as well, which gives a bit more credence to their chances of surviving for the years to come.