tigerbeetle VS FrameworkBenchmarks

Indeed!

I was so glad to see you cite not only the Rebello paper but also Protocol-Aware Recovery for Consensus-Based Storage. When I read your first comment, I was about to reply to mention PAR, and then saw you had saved me the trouble!

UW-Madison are truly the vanguard where consensus hits the disk.

We implemented Protocol-Aware Recovery for TigerBeetle [1], and I did a talk recently at the Recurse Center diving into PAR, talking about the intersection of global consensus protocol and local storage engine. It's called Let's Remix Distributed Database Design! [2] and owes the big ideas to UW-Madison.

[1] https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNmZZLant9o

> It sounds like payments might be part of the larger concept of declarative programming (DP)

Yes, exactly! The idea with TigerBeetle's state machine [1] is to expose double-entry accounting as higher level financial primitives, so that developers can think in terms of declaring transfers from one account to another. The business logic behind the scenes is detailed, but the interfaces and data structures are simple.

[1] https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle/blob/main/src/state_ma...

> Maybe TigerBeetle could be generalized to support any multi-step distributed process?

That's part of the plan, that the distributed database framework of TigerBeetle can be used as a ”distributed Iron Man suit” to support any kind of state machine.

It's a pleasure. Let me know if you have any more questions about TigerBeetle. Our design doc is also here: https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle/blob/main/docs/DESIGN....

Surprisingly, some of the most powerful distributed systems algorithms or tools are actually deterministic. They're powerful because they can "load the dice" and so make the distributed system more intuitive for humans to reason about, more resilient to real world network faults, and do all this with more performance.

For example, Barbara Liskov and James Cowling's deterministic view change [1], which isn't plagued by the latency issues of RAFT's randomized dueling leader problem. Viewstamped Replication Revisited's deterministic view change can react to a failed primary much quicker than RAFT (heartbeat timeouts don't require randomized "padding" as they do in RAFT), commence the leader election, and also ensure that the leader election succeeds without a split vote.

Determinism makes all that possible.

Deterministic testing [2][3] is also your best friend when it comes to testing distributed systems.

[1] I did a talk on VSR, including the benefits of the view change — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wii1LX_ltIs

[2] FoundationDB are pioneers of deterministic testing — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJb8A6h9jQQ

[3] TigerBeetle's deterministic simulation tests — https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle#simulation-tests

This is the chasm problem, where people don't use a technology because people aren't using that technology, thus the technology has difficulty gaining adoption. I did see that Zig does have it's own killer app and startup that's using Zig: TigerBeattle.

Control flow statements should always be on their own lines, then it's easy to find all of them by visually scanning top-down, without needing to look all the way down each line.

[1]: https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle/blob/main/src/vsr/repl...

> In hindsight, data logic should be in the database itself.

This is the reason we are creating TigerBeetle [1] at Coil, as an open source distributed financial accounting database, with the double entry logic and financial invariants enforced through financial primitives within the database itself.

This is all the more critical for financial data, because raw data consistency is not enough for financial transactions, you also need financial consistency, not to mention immutability.

The performance of doing it this way is also easier. For example, around a million financial transactions per second on commodity hardware, with p100 latency around 10-20ms.

[1] https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle

You probably already know this — because we’ve mentioned it a few times — but Coil champions and supports open-source projects and is privacy-first, by default. Over the years, Developer Relations at Coil has championed and sponsored teams that write Open Web Documentations and projects that empower open-source developers to get paid. Coil has also incubated many open-source projects like Tigerbeetle and Rafiki.

[6] Partial logical sector reads/writes even when using O_DIRECT — https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle/blob/main/src/storage....

Neat. Thanks for sharing!

Interestingly, may-minihttp is faring very well in the TechEmpower benchmark [1], for whatever those benchmarks are worth. The code is also surprisingly straightforward [2].

[1] https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/

[2] https://github.com/TechEmpower/FrameworkBenchmarks/blob/mast...

ntex was formed after a schism in actix-web and Rust safety/unsafety, with ntex allowing more unsafe code for better performance.

ntex is at the top of the TechEmpower benchmarks, although those benchmarks are not apples-to-apples since each uses its own tricks: https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#hw=ph&test=fortune&s...

Ruby is slow. Very slow. How much you may ask? https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#hw=ph&test=fortune&s... fastest Ruby entry is at 272th place. Sure, top entries tend to have questionable benchmark-golfing implementations, but it gives you a good primer on the overhead imposed by Ruby.

It is also not early 00s anymore, when you pick an interpreted language, you are not getting "better productivity and tooling". In fact, most interpreted languages lag behind other major languages significantly in the form of JS/TS, Python and Ruby suffering from different woes when it comes to package management and publishing. I would say only TS/JS manages to stand apart with being tolerable, and Python sometimes too by a virtue of its popularity and the amount of information out there whenever you need to troubleshoot.

If you liked Go but felt it being a too verbose to your liking, give .NET a try. I am advocating for it here on HN mostly for fun but it is, in fact, highly underappreciated, considered unsexy and boring while it's anything but after a complete change of trajectory in the last 3-5 years. It is actually the* stack people secretly want but simply don't know about because it is bundled together with Java in the public perception.

*productive CLI tooling, high performance, works well in a really wide range of workloads from low to high level, by far the best ORM across all languages and back-end framework that is easier to work with than Node.JS while consuming 0.1x resources

Although that seems to have improved in recent years.

https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#hw=ph&test=json§...

RoR and whatever C++ based web backend there is count as a valid comparison in my book. But comparing the languages itself is maybe a bit off.

On a side note, you can actually compare their performance here if you’re really curious. But take it with a grain of salt since these are synthetic benchmarks.

https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks

Most benchmarks you'll find essentially have someone's thumb on the scale (intentionally or unintentionally). Most people won't know the different languages well enough to create comparable implementations and if you let different people create the implementations, cheating happens. The TechEmpower benchmarks aren't bad, but many implementations put their thumb on the scale (https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks). For example, a lot of the Go implementations avoid the GC by pre-allocating/reusing structs or allocate arrays knowing how big they need to be in advance (despite that being against the rules). At some point, it becomes "how many features have you turned off." Some Go http routers (like fasthttp and those built off it like Atreugo and Fiber) aren't actually correct and a lot of people in the Go community discourage their use, but they certainly top the benchmarks. Gin and Echo are usually the ones that are well-respected in the Go community.

There is certainly a lot of speculation in Techempower benchmarks and top entries can utilize questionable techniques like simply writing a byte array literal to output stream instead of constructing a response, or (in the past) DB query coalescing to work around inherent limitations of the DB in case of Fortunes or DB quries.

And yet, the fastest Ruby entry is at 274th place while Rails is at 427th.

https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#hw=ph&test=fortune&s...

oh what machine? with how many workers? doing what?

search for "node" on this page: https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r21

JustJS would like a word https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r20&tes...

In terms of RPS, this web service is more-or-less the fortunes benchmark in the techempower benchmarks, once the data hits the cache: https://www.techempower.com/benchmarks/#section=data-r21

Or, at least, they would be after applying optimizations to them.

In short, both of these would serve more rps than you will likely ever need on even the lowest end virtual machines. The underlying API provider will probably cut you off from querying them before you run out of RPS.