maru
sectorlisp
maru | sectorlisp | |
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6 | 25 | |
181 | 1,175 | |
- | - | |
2.7 | 4.3 | |
6 months ago | 5 months ago | |
Common Lisp | C | |
GNU General Public License v3.0 or later | ISC License |
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maru
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C Is Not a Low-level Language – Your computer is not a fast PDP-11
Well Forth is possibly the most minimal VM over a platform, as evidenced by openfirmware.
It does have problems scaling though, in that if you've seen one Forth, you've seen one Forth ie. The variations required to fit a platform make them semi-incompatible.
That's not to say that a more lispy Forth wouldn't be useful though, in that a concatenative syntax allows us to pass custom datastructures around like APL, and CPS (delimited continuations with lexically scoped dynamic binding would come from the lisp side (see https://github.com/manuel/wat-js).
Memory management in Forth can handle multiple memory types eg. https://flashforth.com/ so adding something like ref counting (https://github.com/zigalenarcic/minilisp/blob/main/main.c) to handle the dynamic list side of things might mesh well.
In any case, if you're looking for a self hosting lisp that runs on bare metal, https://github.com/attila-lendvai/maru has been out for a few years.
- Maru - a tiny self-hosting lisp dialect. Developed as part of Alan Kay's Fundamentals of New Computing.
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About making a self hosting programming language
Take a look at Maru. The github project has links to other similar projects.
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Why can't there be a LISP dialect/system that directly translates to optimal machine code?
That's the idea behind the Maru Project. It's a really cool concept and more people should know about it.
- lisp but small and low level?Does it make sense?
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SubX: A minimalist assembly language for a subset of the x86 ISA
Here's another interesting one I just noticed:
https://github.com/attila-lendvai/maru/blob/maru.10/source/a...
sectorlisp
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are there any benchmarks on sector lisp
I'm assuming you are referring to https://github.com/jart/sectorlisp which I gather is an attempt to make a Lisp that fits in a disk boot sector?
- Sectorlisp
- Kilo Lisp: A Kilo Byte-Sized Lisp System
- For the LISP 1.5 mainframe fans here...
- Ask HN: Best book to learn C in 2022?
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Take More Screenshots
I think SIMD was a distraction to our conversation, most code doesn't use it and in the future the length agnostic, flexible vectors; https://github.com/WebAssembly/flexible-vectors/blob/master/... are a better solution. They are a lot like RVV; https://github.com/riscv/riscv-v-spec, research around vector processing is why RISC-V exists in the first place!
I was trying to find the smallest Rust Wasm interpreters I could find, I should have read the source first, I only really use wasmtime, but this one looks very interesting, zero deps, zero unsafe.
16.5kloc of Rust https://github.com/rhysd/wain
The most complete wasm env for small devices is wasm3
20kloc of C https://github.com/wasm3/wasm3
I get what you are saying as to be so small that there isn't a place of bugs to hide.
> “There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult.” CAR Hoare
Even a 100 line program can't be guaranteed to be free of bugs. These programs need embedded tests to ensure that the layer below them is functioning as intended. They cannot and should not run open loop. Speaking of 300+ reimplementations, I am sure that RISC-V has already exceeded that. The smallest readable implementation is like 200 lines of code; https://github.com/BrunoLevy/learn-fpga/blob/master/FemtoRV/...
I don't think Wasm suffers from the base extension issue you bring up. It will get larger, but 1.0 has the right algebraic properties to be useful forever. Wasm does require an environment, for archival purposes that environment should be written in Wasm, with api for instantiating more envs passed into the first env. There are two solutions to the Wasm generating and calling Wasm problem. First would be a trampoline, where one returns Wasm from the first Wasm program which is then re-instantiated by the outer env. The other would be to pass in the api to create new Wasm envs over existing memory buffers.
See, https://copy.sh/v86/
MS-DOS, NES or C64 are useful for archival purposes because they are dead, frozen in time along with a large corpus of software. But there is a ton of complexity in implementing those systems with enough fidelity to run software.
Lua, Typed Assembly; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typed_assembly_language and Sector Lisp; https://github.com/jart/sectorlisp seem to have the right minimalism and compactness for archival purposes. Maybe it is sectorlisp+rv32+wasm.
If there are directions you would like Wasm to go, I really recommend attending the Wasm CG meetings.
https://github.com/WebAssembly/meetings
When it comes to an archival system, I'd like it to be able to run anything from an era, not just specially crafted binaries. I think Wasm meets that goal.
https://gist.github.com/dabeaz/7d8838b54dba5006c58a40fc28da9...
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*Laughs in autocmd*
Based on this, the next thing you wrote, and your reference to running a minimal Gentoo: I think you might be a Scheme fan in the making. Scheme is the minimal Lisp. (Okay, that might be sectorlisp which fits in 512 bytes.) It’s hands down my favorite language. While it’s evolved on its own to be more of a superset of Scheme, Racket is my Scheme of choice.
- Bootstrapping Lisp in a Boot Sector
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That's pretty much it!
sectorlisp
What are some alternatives?
Carp - A statically typed lisp, without a GC, for real-time applications.
sectorforth - sectorforth is a 16-bit x86 Forth that fits in a 512-byte boot sector.
clasp - clasp Common Lisp environment
small-lisp - A very small lisp interpreter, that I may one day get working on my 8-bit AVR microcontroller.
femtolisp - a lightweight, robust, scheme-like lisp implementation
flpc - Forth Lisp Python Continuum: A small highly dynamic self-bootstrapping language
mal - mal - Make a Lisp
cosmopolitan - build-once run-anywhere c library
mu - Soul of a tiny new machine. More thorough tests → More comprehensible and rewrite-friendly software → More resilient society.
kernel-zig - :floppy_disk: hobby x86 kernel zig