pgdbf VS TablaM

My Internet claim to fame was writing a program to get people off of FoxPro to PostgreSQL: https://github.com/kstrauser/pgdbf

FoxPro was nifty in many ways, but nightmarish outside the “single person running the app with the database on their local hard drive” setup. The moment you tried to put the database files on a file share (which is how you used it as a network DB), it was a world of locking pain. And a fun fact: the client libraries were single threaded to the point that you could only run one query at a time per machine. If you had 2 apps running at once, only one of them could be querying at any given time.

Sigh, if only. OK, so the rest of the story was that the original app was written in Visual FoxPro. I was hired to build a web frontend for it. Well, turns out 1) there is, or at least was, no native VFP client for Unix, and 2) the Windows client was single threaded per host, so you couldn't even farm the connectivity out to a Windows process. After struggling with this for a while -- a cluster of Win XP hosts running a single-threaded VFP client and serving results to a Linux webserver via XMLRPC, as was the custom at the time -- I finally said "screw this, let's brute force it." That turned into https://github.com/kstrauser/pgdbf, which is an app to convert a VFP table into a PostgreSQL table. We had it running on a cron job, which worked fine because the website was read-only and it was the VFP app that was actually writing to the tables. It was alright to have up to a few hours of latency between the VFP view of the data and the PostgreSQL view of it.

When the company later committed to rewriting the VFP app in a sane language, they wrote it to run directly against PostgreSQL. That was quite a few years after I'd started there, though.

By orders of magnitude, my most popular open source release was a project to help people migrate from FoxPro to PostgreSQL: https://github.com/kstrauser/pgdbf

FoxPro was cool for desktop apps, but couldn’t make the leap to networked clients, where “networked” was more than “has access to the file share where the database files live”.

In the early 2000s I was hired to write a website that published reports from data stored in a Visual FoxPro database. A not-so-fun fact I learned: the VFP database libraries are single-threaded at the OS level. That is, you couldn’t run more than one query on the same machine at the same time, even in different processes. One would block until another finished. In a fit a panic and madness, I ended up writing an XMLRPC service (“which was the style at the time”) in Python, deploying it to multiple old Windows XP desktops we had laying around, and writing a database adapter for the web server that would send queries to those servers round-robin. Need more parallelism? Add another Windows XP box running my janky little service. It was awful, but it let us ship the project.

Later I wrote pgdbf so that we could run a cron job that would copy all our data out of FoxPro into PostgreSQL so that I could code against a real multi-user database that was vastly better in every way. By accident, I released it at a time when the world was wondering how they were going to migrate from FoxPro to something else. Turns out VFP was wildly popular in South America, and pgdbf turned out to be wildly popular there too, which let to me getting lots of email in Spanish and Portuguese and offers to come talk at user groups. I turned those down because what was I gonna say, “yeah, it was painful for me, too. Anyway, here you go and good luck!”?

> Very curious if anyone knows how to pull this off.

I work in this space (small/mid-size).

The good news is that there are several "obvious" ways to pull this off because an ERP is the culmination of everything a company needs and does. So almost anything you can imagine on the software is part of it.

The bad news, and the reason everyone wants a solution, is that is truly a big space, and then you need E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G.

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My take is to start from the bottom, and build a much better version of Access/FoxPro (https://tablam.org).

Any medium/big ERP end being a specialized computing platform that needs:

- A programming language

- A database engine

- An orchestration engine

- ELT engine

- Auth

- UI/Report builders

And to be clear: NONE of the "programming language", "database engine", etc are a good fit today.

NONE.

This is the big thing, This is the reason (from a tech POW only) that most attempts fail.

This is the secret of why Cobol rule(d): Is all of this! but is too old! (also, this is why SQL still is best: Is almost this).

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So, to pull this off, you need a team that knows what is "missing" from our current tools, makes a well-integrated package, and adds a "user-friendly" interface in a way that is palatable for the kind of user that uses excel (powerfully).

Is not that impossible. FoxPro was the best example of this kind of integrated solution.

P.D: This is my life's dream, to make this truth!

SEEKING VOLUNTEERS: TablaM relational language (https://tablam.org)

TablaM is an in-progress programming language to provide a more ergonomic experience for building data-oriented applications.

This means that where most languages are focused on low-level details or engineering at large, TablaM is tailored with some small & big design decisions to make it enjoyable to write applications for e-commerce, finance, ERPs, and similar.

Cool things:

- TablaM marry the array + relational models. It means we should get very little need for manual loops and all the ops are vectorized.

Yeah, I worked on https://tablam.org and https://spacetimedb.com.

It becomes pretty clear that `order` is a significant property to make useful (and performant!) programs. "Duplicates" is also required to make usefull programs.

One nonobvious reason for this: You wanna report that a `customer` has a duplicated key `1`. If you CAN'T model `[(customer.id = 1), (customer.id = 1)]` then you can't report errors! And `erroneous` data is VITAL to make useful programs because then the only possibility is "perfect" data, and that is not possible!

Another reason is that we want to `count` duplicates, to see `duplicates`, and other NON-obvious at first: "What is a duplicate?". Get fun with floats, Unicode, combining case and non-case sensitive input... and is obvious that for useful programs IS REQUIRED to support bags in an extended version of the relational model.

And yet...

IS very important to remember about `set semantics` and try to adhere to it when makes sense. Your query planner will like it. You "valid" constraints like it. And `unique index` like it. And so on...

Finally, for app development, I will "suggest" everyone use my lang https://tablam.org!

This is moe interesting than it looks, probably because the best part (IMHO) is about the type system, that is what enables the other ideas.

> In Julia, types are first-class and every value has a type

This is what I do from the start in https://tablam.org and only later found that is not common! Is so intuitive this way and simpler to check, by a lot. In fact, I waste so much time adapting type inference algorithms that are hard to translate because for some reason graphs are imposed on trees, types are second-class and live at a distance (and erased) and all is a mess this way.

The relational model already makes this so simple: `project / rename / extend` relational operators cover you.

From this other facilities become possible. Note how in `SQL` you don't have functions as first-class per se, but now try to imagine that a function is a table and suddenly, is much better!

My relational lang (https://tablam.org) that I wish to be a Excel + Access replacement is still half-backed.

I move it slowly in my personal computer but not much in public. Maybe adding another person will help me on that!

> what is a good alternative to Access (or Fox, I add)

Nothing.

Access is(was) in fact a worse alternative to Fox:

- Much worse DB engine, and that is saying a lot (FoxPro db can and get corrupted. A typical functionality that was added to any fox codebase was a utility to fix it)

- MUCH MUCH worse programming language (VB) that is neither good as-is, much less as a data-programing language.

Fox/dbase is the only data-oriented language that was relatively popular and fit for the use-case.

This is by a mile the main point: Is a desert looking for languages that are made for business app/data oriented programing (and much harder looking for something not weird).

The main options: Fox/dBase/Informix(? not remember), kdb+, Cobol, SQL(when extended as store procedure lang with loops and that)

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This point is big. Having a good form builder (that is already rare) is not enough to be a real contender for this space. You need a language where making queries is truly nice.

In short, you need a language that is `LINQ/Relational` as first-class end-to-end.

- If this lang needs an ORM: FAIL.

- If this lang needs to compose strings to make a query: FAIL.

- If exist "impedance mismatch" between data manipulation/queries and the rest of the lang: FAIL.

- It should also support super-advanced types like date, decimal, currency and ideally dimensional units. Ideally algebraic types as today.

- It should have a version of Rust `serve, Into/From` for easy conversion between data + formats.

- It should look "normal" like python/swift with `LINQ` queries.

This is the lang I trying to build: https://tablam.org

> I asked was about querying data without ever using a SQL language, like tapping directly into the data.

I agree (making https://tablam.org to try a fix & working on https://github.com/clockworklabs/SpacetimeDB in the SQL conformance).

Before I think SQL was bad. *Now I'm certain*. SQL is absurdly massive for things that could have collapse all the features 10x or more.

However, working in an RDBM now I also understand why is not desirable to make "raw" calls to the DB: The engine MUST mediate all the calls to make things works (from query optimization, execution, iteration, lock management, transaction management, etc).

Is incredible how much sophistication is in a simple `SELECT * FROM table`.

What I wish is to build a `Wasm-like` IR so that is what anybody target, and `SQL` is not the mediator.

In my case each lang I have learned (+12) I start coding a mini-ORM. I have done the same so many times, and that is a good way to learn from me. Also, I have to learn Rust building https://tablam.org.

It sounds puzzling, I start learning Rust with https://tablam.org and probably was making my life harder trying to do "advanced" stuff when not have any idea of what I was doing.