mjolnir VS conduit

Ah, for a moment, I thought this was about the [Mjölnir project](https://github.com/matrix-org/mjolnir/) in Matrix-land.

I'm running a small (at the beginning it was completely public, now I'm keeping an eye on registrations) homeserver with synapse for a few years - I really like Matrix on a conceptual level and I'm happy that it exists even through it's not perfect it works pretty well mostly. I don't want to be too harsh because it's the best decentralized alternative for chat at the moment and it's open-source and there is a lot of progress but damn' it was a pain in the ass to run that server... we solved our problems mostly with throwing resources and memory on the problem... it's a nice tour de force if you want to learn about debugging distributed systems but it's nothing to install somewhere and just keep running.

synapse is quite a mess and there are a lot of hidden footguns if you just run a server - this is just the tip of iceberg to keep the postgres database somewhat sane: https://levans.fr/shrink-synapse-database.html - lot's of other issues in the issue-tracker where you can just scratch your head.

bridges are all subtly broken - the xmpp bridge is horrible and broke in so much interesting ways that I'm not going to touch it ever again - telegram works okay most of the time, irc-bridge also have some warts - but it's easy to criticize from my chair and probably unfair to talk so negative about it here but it's often buggy and broken for edge-cases - it works most of the time pretty okay but it's quite a mess and difficult to debug things.

moderation/spam/etc.pp is all hackable but it's all mostly quickly hacked up nodejs code that at least for us exploded in all kinds of interesting ways. https://github.com/matrix-org/mjolnir writing 3tb of logs in a few weeks and heating memory like crazy for instance. It's all complicated and there is no simple ui for anything.

So it's powerful but requires quite a bit of dedication and patience to get right. It's a full blown distributed system and often state is all over the place and once you make a mistake it's difficult to get right.

But there are so much promising projects that I'm confident that these issues will be resolved and it will only get better but in my experience it will break badly on all kinds of edge-cases - the mentioned xmpp-bridge created usernames that can't be deleted via the http api for instance. someone bridged 1000 channels via our telegram-bridge and there is no code to remove those channels - you have to code something up in python for yourself. irc bridge kicks you after 30 days idle because they can't handle the connections - freenode (before the takeover) said it's not them - maybe single threaded nodejs is not such a good idea for that.

Could I do it any better and delivering? Probably not. But except some adventure and if you want to deploy it for an org carefully test any assumptions you take for granted. It's cool but it's also kind of quick'n'dirty in a lot of ways. Still better than anything else I'd use it over any megacorp messenger anytime but maybe don't switch your family yet.

Moderation tools are slowly improving, but definitely still don't fit all use cases, and it's very unfortunate they don't come natively with synapse. I'm the lead admin of a Matrix ' Space', and our main room now has over 6,000 users (80%+ are inactive or barely active). We use mjolnir(https://github.com/matrix-org/mjolnir) to ban and redact users/servers/messages across all of our rooms, which has been a godsend since I used to have to redact all the racist/gore myself message-by-message. It's still reactive instead of proactive, but I'm hoping these tools will mature in time.

I'd like to suggest Conduit. I found it very easy to install and maintain. https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit

> "At least as standard" how?

There are 8 people who vote on changes to the Matrix spec (the Spec Core Team), 7 of which are Element employees (including Matthew, Element's CEO). Element also controls the development of clients and servers used by the large majority of users in the public federation.

> A substantial portion of the IRC comunity is actively hostile to the IRCv3 extensions, and in some cases prefer incompatible implementations of the same functionality; Matrix has nothing like that going on.

But any IRC client will work fine on any IRC server, and they can connect to various servers with different implementations.

On Matrix, clients (generally) can only connect to one homeserver at a time; which forces them to converge on following exactly the same spec. And if your server differs ever so slightly from the other ones in how it implements some parts of the spec (room consensus), then it can be split-brained from the rest of the federation. Instead, changes to the room consensus are done by pushing new room versions, and each server implementation needs to explicitly support it or they can't join it. This means Synapse devs (which are a majority of Element employees) get to decide what room versions can get traction.

It is not uncommon for people in the Matrix community to complain about this and Element keeping specs in limbo, and PRs to the flagship clients being stuck in "design review tar".

> And there seem to be more visibly independent implementations of Matrix than IRCv3.

Clients, maybe, at least in the number of implementation. It's hard to find stats of this, but I feel that >95% of people in the public federation use Element even in tech-y rooms; IRC has a healthier mix of major clients (weechat, irssi, IRCCloud, Hexchat, KiwiIRC, The Lounge each have >5% of desktop/web users). But I admit that's just my very subjective point of view.

In terms of servers, Matrix has three open source ones as far as I know: Synapse (controlled by Element), Dendrite (controlled by Element, and almost on par with Synapse according to https://arewep2pyet.com/ ), and Conduit. Based on https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit/-/milestones/3 , Conduit seems to be far from implementing the spec yet (eg. it doesn't seem to support leaving rooms or respecting history visibility).

> things like: server-side history extensions tended to mess up my client's history implementation (I'd end up with multiple copies of the same messages in my local logs, often with the wrong timestamps)

You can use https://ircv3.net/specs/extensions/message-ids to deduplicate them.

> And if you're in a conversation where people are using embedded gifs, then fundamentally you'll always be a second-class citizen if you're trying to participate in that with a client that can't display embedded gifs.

A conversation where people where people are using embedded gifs will exclude me regardless of client, because they are too distracting. At least on IRC I can expect people not to do it too much, and use words or emojis instead of reaction gifs.

> SSO access control; you just can't do that in a nice way if the client doesn't support it

That's a fair point; IRC is made by hobbyists more than companies, so that's not surprising. There is some discussion around it though: https://github.com/ircv3/ircv3-ideas/issues/74 and Sourcehut is sponsoring implementation (https://emersion.fr/blog/2022/irc-and-oauth2/).

To start, this will be strictly Non-Federated. Just a few friends will be using this. Here: https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit/-/blob/next/DEPLOY.md is the documentation I am following. It tells me I must "use my server name", but what is this exactly? What do I put in there? Do I have to go out and buy a domain?

Either Tinode (https://github.com/tinode/chat) or Matrix Protocol (https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit)

Matrix Protocol: Fractal (Client), Conduit (Server)

If self-hosting is an option then I'd say Matrix, you can try Conduit (server) and Elements(client). To simplify deployment you can refer to this repo.

You can babble on and on about how its not how you do it, no one needs it, etc... But its a demonstrable need in this space and its caused me great pain trying to write applications that would be used by such people. It's even bit Conduit to the point they have 5+ DB backends coded in now that the user can choose between based on their local system setups.

Give Conduit a try. It uses way less memory than Synapse. It is still in early stages but works great. I have been running one on a Pi4 for like a year, going great so far.

There's a Rust implementation of a Matrix server that uses sled: https://gitlab.com/famedly/conduit/