jenkins-std-lib VS Concourse

> On a previous team I had used Concourse CI to some extent, but I wasn’t really blown away by the experience. Travis and Circle were mentioned. I was a fool. I should have committed to seriously researching some of the contenders and making a more informed decision, but I lacked the willpower and the discernment.

The whole post can be summed up as he had very little CICD experience. Made lots of beginner mistakes, which is easy to do in Jenkins. Then decided to write a post where all his complaints about Jenkins are not only wrong but are the issues that plague all the other CICD tools.

> So instead of writing Bash directly, you’re writing Bash inside Groovy

Why are you doing that? You have a fully featured programming language and you are running `sh('npm install')`. You could do this instead https://github.com/DontShaveTheYak/jenkins-std-lib/blob/mast... . How is bash inside of YAML better?

> The trouble is: Groovy is a much, much worse language for executing commands than Bash. Bash is interpreted, has a REPL that is great for experimentation, does require a ton of imports, and has lightweight syntax. Groovy has none of these things.

Groovy has a language server, linters and a vscode IDE plugins. They are probably not as stable or full featured as the bash ones, but they are available and very few take advantage of them. Again, how is YAML+Bash better?

> The way that developers test their Groovy steps is by triggering a job on the remote Jenkins server to run them. The feedback loop is 2 orders of magnitude slower than it is for just executing Bash locally.

This is a rookie mistake. For about 60-75% of pipelines you can run them locally in a docker container on your local machine. You can even set up hot code reload so as you change your pipeline the Jenkins reloads it. You can also configure the job to kick off a build when it reloads the code. When Jenkins is configured correctly it has the fastest feedback loop of any CICD tool on the market. GitHub actions comes in a close second since it can also be run locally but you cant run a "clone" of what you run in production, like having the same secrets, so it gets second place. Beside Jenkins and GitHub actions, I dont know of any solutions for the other tools.

You can run a GitHub action on Jenkins. It's a very deep and complex system. It's like an iceberg and so many engineers dont leave the surface before deciding it sucks and one of the YAML CICD tools is better. Sure the YAML alternatives are EASY to get started with and to do basic stuff with. But they are Terrible at anything complex. While Jenkins is not easy to get started with, once mastered, you can build complex pipelines with ease.

I get that I'm a Jenkins fanboy. Most of the things I mentioned above, I either contribute to or I'm the author of. I know Jenkins has issues. I know it has hurt lots of people, I read the complaints online. But it's still the best out there. The best software in the world is not written in bash or yaml and the same is true of the best CICD pipelines in the world. It's a shame very few people get to see/use those pipelines.

With Jenkins you can still run your favorite GitHub actions. https://github.com/DontShaveTheYak/jenkins-std-lib/blob/master/jobs/github/actions/step_example.groovy

This library has a lot of helpful features https://github.com/DontShaveTheYak/jenkins-std-lib , one of my favorites is being able to run GitHub actions natively in Jenkins pipelines.

Here is an example using s6 overlay https://github.com/DontShaveTheYak/jenkins-std-lib/tree/master/docker/prod

Run a Jenkins locally in docker. I use a vscode dev container for this. https://github.com/DontShaveTheYak/jenkins-std-lib/blob/master/.devcontainer/devcontainer.json

I do my best https://github.com/DontShaveTheYak/jenkins-std-lib

If you use Jenkins and want to try actions then check out https://github.com/DontShaveTheYak/jenkins-std-lib

It let's you run actions on top of Jenkins.

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> Why bother, when Dagger caches everything automatically?

The fear with needing to run `npm ci` (or better, `pnpm install`) before running dagger is on the amount of time required to get this step to run. Sure, in the early days, trying out toy examples, when the only dependencies are from dagger upstream, very little time at all. But what happens when I start pulling more and more dependencies from the Node ecosystem to build the Dagger pipeline? Your documentation includes examples like pulling in `@google-cloud/run` as a dependency: https://docs.dagger.io/620941/github-google-cloud#step-3-cre... and similar for Azure: https://docs.dagger.io/620301/azure-pipelines-container-inst... . The more dependencies brought in - the longer `npm ci` is going to take on GitHub Actions. And it's pretty predictable that, in a complicated pipeline, the list of dependencies is going to get pretty big - at least a dependency per infrastructure provider we use, plus inevitably all the random Node dependencies that work their way into any Node project, like eslint, dotenv, prettier, testing dependencies... I think I have a reasonable fear that `npm ci` just for the Dagger pipeline will hit multiple minutes, and then developers who expect linting and similar short-run jobs to finish within 30 seconds are going to wonder why they're dealing with this overhead.

It's worth noting that one of Concourse's problems was, even with webhooks setup for GitHub to notify Concourse to begin a build, Concourse's design required it to dump the contents of the webhook and query the GitHub API for the same information (whether there were new commits) before starting a pipeline and cloning the repository (see: https://github.com/concourse/concourse/issues/2240 ). And that was for a CI/CD system where, for all YAML's faults, for sure one of its strengths is that it doesn't require running `npm ci`, with all its associated slowness. So please take it on faith that, if even a relatively small source of latency like that was felt in Concourse, for sure the latency from running `npm ci` will be felt, and Dagger's users (DevOps) will be put in an uncomfortable place where they need to defend the choice of Dagger from their users (developers) who go home and build a toy example on AlternateCI which runs what they need much faster.

> I will concede that Dagger’s clustering capabilities are not great yet

Herein my argument. It's not that I'm not convinced that building pipelines in a general-purpose programming language is a better approach compared to YAML, it's that building pipelines is tightly coupled with the infrastructure that runs the pipelines. One aspect of that is scaling up compute to meet the requirements dictated by the pipeline. But another aspect is that `npm ci` should not be run before submitting the pipeline code to Dagger, but after submitting the pipeline code to Dagger. Dagger should be responsible for running `npm ci`, just like Concourse was responsible for doing all the interpolation of the `((var))` syntax (i.e. you didn't need to run some kind of templating before submitting the YAML to Concourse). If Dagger is responsible for running `npm ci` (really, `pnpm install`), then it can maintain its own local pnpm store / pipeline dependency caching, which would be much faster, and overcome any shortcomings in the caching system of GitHub Actions or whatever else is triggering it.

> Imagine you live in a world where no part of the build has to repeat unless the changes actually impacted it. A world in which all builds happened with automatic parallelism. A world in which you could reproduce very reliably any part of the build on your laptop.

That sounds similar to https://concourse-ci.org/

I quite like it, but it never seemed to gain traction outside of Cloud Foundry.

I used Concourse[0] for a while. No real complaints, the visibility is nice but the functionality isn't anything new.

[0] https://concourse-ci.org/

We run https://concourse-ci.org/ on our own hardware at our office. (as a side note, running your own hardware, you realise just how abysmally slow most cloud servers are.)

Concourse: https://concourse-ci.org

We use https://concourse-ci.org/ at the moment and have been reasonably happy with it, however it only has support for linux containers at the moment, no windows containers. (MacOS doesn't have a containers primitive yet unfortunately)