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Home | runtimelab | |
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37 | 53 | |
77 | 1,335 | |
- | 0.9% | |
0.0 | 4.6 | |
about 1 year ago | 3 days ago | |
- | MIT License |
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Shepherd's Oasis: Statement on RustConf & Introspection
Are you sure you want Microsoft in particular to step in? https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/39
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Rust has been forked to the Crab Language
Indeed, by criteria of community drama, .NET is also too immature for use. See [1], as the conclusion of that.
[1]: https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/40
- 6 .NET Myths Dispelled — Celebrating (Almost) 21 Years of .NET
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.NET 6
Saying that outcry was about one tiny decision is like saying WW1 was because an Archduke got assassinated.
Microsoft's handling of .NET 's OSS community has been haphazard at best. Just a week or two prior to the 'dotnet watch' debacle, there were issues and concerns with the .NET Foundation that led to the Executive Director stepping down [0].
I bring this up, because in many cases the perception is that there is -still- lock in, just in a different fashion.
By that, I mean, if you Ask a typical .NET developer what they use, they'll probably say ASPNETCORE, EF Core, maybe you'll hear Hangfire, MediatR, RestSharp, or Dapper.
So, you've got a bunch of .NET devs that -only- know Microsoft technologies for the most part. Yeah there's some other stuff like MongoDb, Kafka, Redis, stuff like that, but It's not very frequent you hear about teams reaching out to other technologies.
It's very rare I hear people bring up Linq2Db, a beautiful* Micro-ORM that is best described as a type-safe, extensible SQL DSL. Or Websharper, a really-freaking-cool library that basically lets you transpile your C#/F# code into Javascript and/or Reactive HTML, complete with seamless server calls if you'd like.
You might run into some interesting things at different places. One shop I was at used MassTransit, which was kinda cool. I've wound up using Akka.NET a few times in the past, which has always been super fun.
The end result of this though, is the -perception- of what .NET Developers are like. And sometimes those perceptions are real. I remember the dev that felt Dapper was some sort of 'black magic' and would stick to writing DataReaders and or datatables by hand, and another that was so against the idea including Non-MS tech in a project that it wound up costing him his job; he insisted there was a way to get EF to do things in a performant way (answer: not sanely, and not easily the way the app was built on an arch level,) and refused to accept a PR that solved the problem with Dapper.
He wound up doing the thing I've seen a -lot- of .NET developers do; fight the Framework.
To be clear here, I'm not referring to the BCL. It's not always perfect (I'd love for an analogue to SSLEngine, please?), but it's -fine-. I'm referring to bits like ASPNETCORE, EFCore, SignalR, and Microsoft.Extensions.(DependencyInjection/Logging) where developers wind up getting in awkward tarpits around some weird edge case because of a business requirement or some other decision that, unfortunately, can't be undone.
Or are just plain 'well, that sounds sensible in theory' like "I would like to update N rows in an new status that are older than 1 month and set to overdue, and not have it be N update statements." Maybe EF does that now, but last I knew the answer was not really.
At my first 'Real' Dev job, we were a .NET shop, that often had to 'fight the framework' (it didn't help that we were on an Oracle Backend, which made -everything- more of a PITA before we discovered Dapper.) When the .NET guys hit one of these roadblocks, it would often take sprint after sprint of fighting to either have no solution, or have a solution that would render the app hard to maintain. The newer teams using Java? They didn't have those problems. We later heard they had 5 different ORM-ish libraries in use over there. At the time, a lot of the .NET devs kinda treated it as a sort of derision. 'hows somebody gonna understand it?'... But the Java teams delivered. It is also worth considering, maybe those were the best libraries to solve the problems that the app in question needed to deal with.
And that's kinda the 'mindset' that is a set of .NET developers that fit the stereotype; if it's not an app that fits their cookie-cutter world, they break down and can't understand it. In other words, they're afraid to step outside the box, which means they're less likely to think outside the box.
The typical 'litmus-test' of this type for me is a sliding scale based on their past/current experience with other languages and willingness to work with them.
* - I do some contribution work to Linq2Db, so my opinion may be a little biased.
[0] - https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/39#
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.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI Restored
I've heard this so many times within the last 10 years, and it's always after they've done something really stupid. At least in the FOSS realm, regarding microsoft, people are just so naive it's laughable. Like here where everyone is responding by pretty much saying "oh, it seems I've signed my rights away. I sure hope Microsoft doesn't abuse this in the future" ... I stopped feeling bad after reading responses.
- Can we trust Microsoft with Open Source?
- Detailed thoughts on the State of the .NET Foundation · Discussion #60 · dotnet-foundation/Home
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.Net Foundation opens discussions around recent issues.
Part of the drama: https://github.com/dotnet-foundation/Home/discussions/39 Many things before were on twitter.
- Miguel de Icaza comment on the .NET Foundation
runtimelab
- Green Thread Experiment in .NET
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Is .NET just miles ahead or am I delusional?
There was a "green thread" experiment for dotnet a while ago, here is the conclusion: https://github.com/dotnet/runtimelab/issues/2398
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Why choose async/await over threads?
Experiment result write-up: https://github.com/dotnet/runtimelab/blob/e69dda51c7d796b812...
TLDR: The green threads experiment was a failure as it found (expected and obvious) issues that the Java applications are now getting to enjoy, joining their Go colleagues, while also requiring breaking changes. It, however, gave inspiration to subsequent re-examination of current async/await implementation and whether it can be improved by moving state machine generation and execution away from IL completely to runtime. It was a massive success as evidenced by preliminary overhead estimations in the results.
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Garnet – A new remote cache-store from Microsoft Research
Yeah, it kind of is. There are quite a few of experiments that are conducted to see if they show promise in the prototype form and then are taken further for proper integration if they do.
Unfortunately, object stack allocation was not one of them even though DOTNET_JitObjectStackAllocation configuration knob exists today, enabling it makes zero impact as it almost never kicks in. By the end of the experiment[0], it was concluded that before investing effort in this kind of feature becomes profitable given how a lot of C# code is written, there are many other lower hanging fruits.
To contrast this, in continuation to green threads experiment, a runtime handled tasks experiment[1] which moves async state machine handling from IL emitted by Roslyn to special-cased methods and then handling purely in runtime code has been a massive success and is now being worked on to be integrated in one of the future version of .NET (hopefully 10?)
[0] https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/11192
[1] https://github.com/dotnet/runtimelab/blob/feature/async2-exp...
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Java virtual threads hit with pinning issue
Unlike these folks from dotnet, which tested directly on ASP for real workload
https://github.com/dotnet/runtimelab/issues/2398?darkschemeovr=1
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Ask HN: Do we have evidence that green threading is faster than OS threads?
[1] https://github.com/dotnet/runtimelab/issues/2398
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JEP Draft – Derived Record Creation (Preview) – Java
The only way to avoid it is to not build on top of Java or not adding any features on top of Java.
> To give another example with C#, there has been a lot of recent discussion about finding potential alternatives to their async-await concurrency model. They cite the level of effort it takes to maintain the async await style code and the costs that come from this.
I had a very different take-away. They did PoC with virtual threads and decided it's not worth the switch now and async-await that they have is good enough.
https://github.com/dotnet/runtimelab/issues/2398
> Some of the languages it gets compared too aren't even that old yet.
C# is old enough to drink and Scala just had its 20th birthday this week :)
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.NET 8 – .NET Blog
It was tried and the dotnet team decided to drop it: https://github.com/dotnet/runtimelab/issues/2398
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.NET Green Thread Experiment Results
Technical details here: https://github.com/dotnet/runtimelab/blob/feature/green-thre...
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Thread-per-Core
Just last month .NET ended a green threading experiment, mainly because the overhead it adds to FFI was too high:
https://github.com/dotnet/runtimelab/issues/2398
Rust had green threads until late 2014, and they were removed because of their impact on performance.
Everyone has done the basic research: green threading is a convenient abstraction that comes with certain performance trade offs. It doesn't work for the kind of profile that Rust is trying to target.
What are some alternatives?
jedi-language-server - A Python language server exclusively for Jedi. If Jedi supports it well, this language server should too.
.NET Runtime - .NET is a cross-platform runtime for cloud, mobile, desktop, and IoT apps.
sdk - Core functionality needed to create .NET Core projects, that is shared between Visual Studio and CLI
DNNE - Prototype native exports for a .NET Assembly.
splat - Makes things cross-platform
.NET-Obfuscator - Lists of .NET Obfuscator (Free, Freemium, Paid and Open Source )
zig - General-purpose programming language and toolchain for maintaining robust, optimal, and reusable software.
FrameworkBenchmarks - Source for the TechEmpower Framework Benchmarks project
crab - A community fork of a language named after a plant fungus. All of the memory-safe features you love, now with 100% less bureaucracy!
csharplang - The official repo for the design of the C# programming language
loom - https://openjdk.org/projects/loom
Cocona - Micro-framework for .NET console application. Cocona makes it easy and fast to build console applications on .NET.