zig-gamedev VS tigerbeetle

Two game frameworks in the making: https://github.com/michal-z/zig-gamedev & https://github.com/hexops/mach

I did a hangman game, I'm doing a file compression tool next. I asked bing chat to recommend beginner projects for zig and that's what it told me. It also suggested a cli calculator and a cli text editor, but I didn't want to do that. My next thing will be something using https://github.com/michal-z/zig-gamedev

This repo may be useful. It isn't an engine or a renderer, but rather a collection of useful libraries if you do end up writing your own tools. https://github.com/michal-z/zig-gamedev

Something like vulkano in Rust or zig-gamedev in zig might be a much more enjoyable approach: They're similarly bare metal languages but have a lot of advantages over C++ (borrow checker's safety, simpler syntax). However, they're not commonly used by big studios.

I've been working on a gamedev project in zig, using zig-gamedev. It has many libraries you can use, though my game is 2D. Feel free to check out my project if you want to see how I set things up. https://github.com/foxnne/aftersun

Language-level guarantees of memory safety are not critical to all low-level programmers, and sometimes this is fine!

Developers of games, compilers, digital audio workstations, video editors, and live performance software (such as openFrameworks) likely don't rank memory safety as their top concern.

Zig is already an attractive choice for those domains because it offers:

- Great compile times compared to C++/Rust, and future plans to implement hot reloading as a core part of the tooling: https://www.jakubkonka.com/2022/03/16/hcs-zig.html

- The ability to reason about where data exists in memory: https://ziglang.org/documentation/master/#Where-are-the-byte...

- Good readability and learnability, especially if you have a C/C++ background.

- Comptime that enables clean generics, compile-time reflection and general metaprogramming as a happy side-effect: https://kristoff.it/blog/what-is-zig-comptime/

- Better tooling than C/C++. The ability to cross-compile Zig and C/C++ from one machine lets you set up much more stable and reproducible build environments already. You can clone zig-gamedev and have the demos working with just three commands on Windows/macOS/Linux, for example, and two of those three are cloning the repo and changing to the directory: https://github.com/michal-z/zig-gamedev (to build you will need the latest copy of Zig from the 'masters' section for your platform at https://ziglang.org/download/ )

We should all be careful about insinuating that memory unsafe languages should not exist. I see “friends don't let friends use memory-unsafe languages” on social media and feel sick. It's much healthier to embrace the melting pot of Zig, Odin, D, Beef, Vale, Hare, Lobster, Jai, C3, Val, Roc and all the rest and see what new ideas and trade-offs they bring.

Also worth noting that new languages tend to take time to develop their own philosophies to memory safety (Vale's approach is only just now emerging, for example: https://verdagon.dev/blog/making-regions-part-1-human-factor ). Zig's story might not be great now ( https://www.scattered-thoughts.net/writing/how-safe-is-zig/ ), but then it's not Zig's priorty at the moment, and Zig's full story is not yet written.

Indeed!

I was so glad to see you cite not only the Rebello paper but also Protocol-Aware Recovery for Consensus-Based Storage. When I read your first comment, I was about to reply to mention PAR, and then saw you had saved me the trouble!

UW-Madison are truly the vanguard where consensus hits the disk.

We implemented Protocol-Aware Recovery for TigerBeetle [1], and I did a talk recently at the Recurse Center diving into PAR, talking about the intersection of global consensus protocol and local storage engine. It's called Let's Remix Distributed Database Design! [2] and owes the big ideas to UW-Madison.

[1] https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNmZZLant9o

> It sounds like payments might be part of the larger concept of declarative programming (DP)

Yes, exactly! The idea with TigerBeetle's state machine [1] is to expose double-entry accounting as higher level financial primitives, so that developers can think in terms of declaring transfers from one account to another. The business logic behind the scenes is detailed, but the interfaces and data structures are simple.

[1] https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle/blob/main/src/state_ma...

> Maybe TigerBeetle could be generalized to support any multi-step distributed process?

That's part of the plan, that the distributed database framework of TigerBeetle can be used as a ”distributed Iron Man suit” to support any kind of state machine.

It's a pleasure. Let me know if you have any more questions about TigerBeetle. Our design doc is also here: https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle/blob/main/docs/DESIGN....

Surprisingly, some of the most powerful distributed systems algorithms or tools are actually deterministic. They're powerful because they can "load the dice" and so make the distributed system more intuitive for humans to reason about, more resilient to real world network faults, and do all this with more performance.

For example, Barbara Liskov and James Cowling's deterministic view change [1], which isn't plagued by the latency issues of RAFT's randomized dueling leader problem. Viewstamped Replication Revisited's deterministic view change can react to a failed primary much quicker than RAFT (heartbeat timeouts don't require randomized "padding" as they do in RAFT), commence the leader election, and also ensure that the leader election succeeds without a split vote.

Determinism makes all that possible.

Deterministic testing [2][3] is also your best friend when it comes to testing distributed systems.

[1] I did a talk on VSR, including the benefits of the view change — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wii1LX_ltIs

[2] FoundationDB are pioneers of deterministic testing — https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJb8A6h9jQQ

[3] TigerBeetle's deterministic simulation tests — https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle#simulation-tests

This is the chasm problem, where people don't use a technology because people aren't using that technology, thus the technology has difficulty gaining adoption. I did see that Zig does have it's own killer app and startup that's using Zig: TigerBeattle.

Control flow statements should always be on their own lines, then it's easy to find all of them by visually scanning top-down, without needing to look all the way down each line.

[1]: https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle/blob/main/src/vsr/repl...

> In hindsight, data logic should be in the database itself.

This is the reason we are creating TigerBeetle [1] at Coil, as an open source distributed financial accounting database, with the double entry logic and financial invariants enforced through financial primitives within the database itself.

This is all the more critical for financial data, because raw data consistency is not enough for financial transactions, you also need financial consistency, not to mention immutability.

The performance of doing it this way is also easier. For example, around a million financial transactions per second on commodity hardware, with p100 latency around 10-20ms.

[1] https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle

You probably already know this — because we’ve mentioned it a few times — but Coil champions and supports open-source projects and is privacy-first, by default. Over the years, Developer Relations at Coil has championed and sponsored teams that write Open Web Documentations and projects that empower open-source developers to get paid. Coil has also incubated many open-source projects like Tigerbeetle and Rafiki.

[6] Partial logical sector reads/writes even when using O_DIRECT — https://github.com/coilhq/tigerbeetle/blob/main/src/storage....