thirdroom VS matrix.to

Not sure if Mozilla Hubs federates, but as already said, ThirdRoom is Matrix VRchat thing.

you can calculate 2D CSS transforms which match the equivalent transforms of your WebGL scene in WebXR - as an efficient but hacky way to (for instance) do live video overlays in 3D without having to mess around importing the video texture into WebGL (assuming you don’t need occlusion or environmental effects etc).

we’re toying with this as an approach for video overlays in https://thirdroom.io, especially for underpowered devices.

by “matrix chat 3d like things” do you mean https://thirdroom.io?

It would be super easy to build something like this on Third Room - and then get e2ee and decentralisation etc for free :)

oh, wow. we have 3D Tile support in https://thirdroom.io but had only ever found NASA’s Mars dataset as a good set of tiles to point it at. This could effectively turn Third Room into a FOSS, decentralised, E2EE multiplayer Google Earth running over Matrix!

AT proto has some significant similarities to Matrix:

* Both are work by self-authenticating git-style replication of Merkle trees/DAGs

* Both define strict data schemas for extensible sets of events (Matrix uses JSON schema - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec/tree/main/data/eve... and OpenAPI; AT uses Lexicons)

* Both use HTTPS for client-server and server-server traffic by default.

* Both are focused on decentralised composable reputation - e.g. https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/19/combating-abuse-in-matrix... on the Matrix side, or https://paulfrazee.medium.com/the-anti-parler-principles-for... on the bluesky side, etc.

* Both are designed as big-world communication networks. You don't have the server balkanisation that affects ActivityPub.

* Both eschew cryptocurrency systems and incentives.

There are some significant differences too:

* Matrix aspires to be the secure communication layer for the open web.

* AT aspires (i think) to be an open decentralised social networking protocol for the internet.

* AT has portable identity by default. We've been working on this on Matrix (e.g. MSC1228 - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/122... and MSC2787 - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/nei...) and have a new MSC (and implementation on Dendrite) in progress right now which combines the best bits of MSC1228 & MSC2787 into something concrete, at last. In fact the proto-MSC is due to emerge today.

* AT is proposing a asymmetrical federation architecture where user data is stored on Personal Data Servers (PDS), but indexing/fan-out/etc is done by Big Graph Servers (BGS). Matrix is symmetrical and by default federates full-mesh between all servers participating in a conversation, which on one hand is arguably better from a self-sovereignty and resilience perspective - but empirically has created headaches where an underpowered server joins some massive public chatroom and then melts. Matrix has improved this by steady optimisation of both protocol and implementation (i.e. adding lazy loading everywhere - e.g. https://matrix-org.github.io/synapse/latest/development/syna...), but formalising an asymmetrical architecture is an interesting different approach :)

* AT is (today) focused on for public conversations (e.g. prioritising big-world search and indexing etc), whereas Matrix focuses both on private and public communication - whether that's public chatrooms with 100K users over 10K servers, or private encrypted group conversations. For instance, one of Matrix's big novelties is decentralised access control without finality (https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/16/matrix-decomposition-an-i...) in order to enforce access control for private conversations.

* Matrix also provides end-to-end encryption for private conversations by default, today via Double Ratchet (Olm/Megolm) and in the nearish future MLS (https://arewemlsyet.com). We're also starting to work on post quantum crypto.

* Matrix is obviously ~7 years older, and has many more use cases fleshed out - whether that's native VoIP/Video a la Element Call (https://element.io/blog/introducing-native-matrix-voip-with-...) or virtual worlds like Third Room (https://thirdroom.io) or shared whiteboarding (https://github.com/toger5/TheBoard) etc.

* AT's lexicon approach looks to be a more modular to extend the protocol than Matrix's extensible event schemas - in that AT lexicons include both RPC definitions as well as the schemas for the underlying datatypes, whereas in Matrix the OpenAPI evolves separately to the message schemas.

* AT uses IPLD; Matrix uses Canonical JSON (for now)

* Matrix is perhaps more sophisticated on auth, in that we're switching to OpenID Connect for all authentication (and so get things like passkeys and MFA for free): https://areweoidcyet.com

* Matrix has an open governance model with >50% of spec proposals coming from the wider community these days: https://spec.matrix.org/proposals

* AT has done a much better job of getting mainstream uptake so far, perhaps thanks to building a flagship app from day one (before even finishing or opening up the protocol) - whereas Element coming relatively late to the picture has meant that Element development has been constantly slowed by dealing with existing protocol considerations (and even then we've had constant complaints about Element being too influential in driving Matrix development).

* AT backs up all your personal data on your client (space allowing), to aid portability, whereas Matrix is typically thin-client.

* Architecturally, Matrix is increasingly experimenting with a hybrid P2P model (https://arewep2pyet.com) as our long-term solution - which effectively would end up with all your data being synced to your client. I'd assume bluesky is consciously avoiding P2P having been overextended on previous adventures with DAT/hypercore: https://github.com/beakerbrowser/beaker/blob/master/archive-.... Whereas we're playing the long game to slowly converge on P2P, even if that means building our own overlay networks etc: https://github.com/matrix-org/pinecone

I'm sure there are a bunch of other differences, but these are the ones which pop to the top of my head, plus I'm far from an expert in AT protocol.

It's worth noting that in the early days of bluesky, the Matrix team built out Cerulean (https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/18/introducing-cerulean) as a demonstration to the bluesky team of how you could build big-world microblogging on top of Matrix, and that Matrix is not just for chat. We demoed it to Jack and Parag, but they opted to fund something entirely new in the form of AT proto. I'm guessing that the factors that went into this were: a) wanting to be able to optimise the architecture purely for social networking (although it's ironic that ATproto has ended up pretty generic too, similar to Matrix), b) wanting to be able to control the strategy and not have to follow Matrix's open governance model, c) wanting to create something new :)

From the Matrix side; we keep in touch with the bluesky team and wish them the best, and it's super depressing to see folks from ActivityPub and Nostr throwing their toys in this manner. It reminds me of the unpleasant behaviour we see from certain XMPP folks who resent the existence of Matrix (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35874291). The reality is that the 'enemy' here, if anyone, are the centralised communication/social platforms - not other decentralisation projects. And even the centralised platforms have the option of seeing the light and becoming decentralised one day if we play our parts well.

What would be really cool, from my perspective, would be if Matrix ended up being able to help out with the private communication use cases for AT proto - as we obviously have a tonne of prior art now for efficient & audited E2EE private comms and decentralised access control. Moreover, I /think/ the lexicon approach in AT proto could let Matrix itself be expressed as an AT proto lexicon - providing interop with existing Matrix rooms (at least semantically), and supporting existing Matrix clients/SDKs, while using AT proto's ID model and storing data in PDSes etc. Coincidentally, this matches work we've been doing on the Matrix side as part of the MIMI IETF working group to figure out how to layer Matrix on top of other existing protocols: e.g. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ralston-mimi-matrix-t... and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ralston-mimi-matrix-m... - and if I had infinite time right now I'd certainly be trying to map Matrix's CS & SS APIs onto an AT proto lexicon to see what it looks like.

TL;DR: I think AT proto is cool, and I wish that open projects saw each other as fellow travellers rather than competitors.

You could take a look to this project: https://github.com/matrix-org/thirdroom As part of the project they are implementing a web Game engine, uses ThreeJS for graphics, and includes multiplayer using the Matrix protocol. Could be a good starting point.

Have you looked into what thirdroom or ambient have done in the space?

Have you lot made any friends over at Third Room yet? ;)

If you wanted to be serious about it, you could try to make something based on https://thirdroom.io

Happy to see this on HN =). Lunatik’s main author here. AMA.

Please feel welcome to join us on Matrix [1] as well.

[1] https://matrix.to/#/#lunatik:matrix.org

There is this list of 15-minute bugs that should be easy to tackle https://bugs.kde.org/buglist.cgi?bug_severity=critical&bug_s...

Also strarting on smaller KDE applications is usually a great way to start, For example the Plasma widgets/applets or KDE games or educational applications.

You can join the New Contributors char room on Matrix to get help with starting out https://matrix.to/#/#new-contributors:kde.org

There's also https://matrix.to/#/#review-requests:nixos.org

Hi, I'm the Thib person mention in this article, and I agree that QA is super important. I can mostly talk about matrix.org, since I have little power over the Element clients. Disclaimer though: I'm technically employed by Element (to make paperwork simpler since I'm France-based, Element has an entity in France, and the Foundation is UK-based), but I'm working for the Foundation full time.

This kind of article is super valuable since it gives us the perspective of a new user. I opened https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix.org/issues/2178 to translate the gripes mentioned in the issue into actionable items for us. I took action on the most urgent one (updating the Try Matrix page), but want to take the time to go beyond the surface symptoms and address the root cause of the other gripes.

On the Foundation side, we're a small but mighty team of four. The website is currently maintained part time by me and a volunteer who is doing an excellent job at it.

As I wrote recently in a blog post "Tracking what works, not people" (https://ergaster.org/posts/2024/01/24-tracking-what-works/), I would love to have the resources to conduct user research and user testing on the website but I unfortunately don't. We deployed privacy-preserving analytics to see where people drop and what confuses them. It's not nearly as good as proper QA and user testing, but that's what we can afford for now.

Overall I'm grateful to the author for documenting their frustration, and even more grateful for reacting constructively to our responses and integrating them in the blog post! One of the strengths of open source is to find and address issues collectively. I consider this blog post to be a good open source contribution.

If people around believe in our mission and want to help us with their brainpower, I invite them to join our "Office of the Matrix.org Foundation" room: https://matrix.to/#/%23foundation-office:matrix.org

For those aligned with our mission and who want to support us financially, the https://matrix.org/support/ page should give you all the information you need to help us out.

https://matrix.to/#/#openbao-general:chat.lfx.linuxfoundatio...

Hi all,

This project release is a long time coming. It was a big uphill battle, and by far my largest endeavor so far. I built it for Sandstorm because I believe in Sandstorm's model, and I wanted to show that there's still life and potential in it. If you're inspired, joining our OpenCollective would be really helpful: https://opencollective.com/sandstormcommunity (keeping in mind that Sandstorm has now moved from its original leadership to a community project https://sandstorm.org/news/2023-11-03-from-io-to-org).

You can also join our mailing list or connect on the fediverse: https://sandstorm.org/community (The IRC link is outdated, we've effectively moved to Matrix for now due to the libera.chat split: https://matrix.to/#/#sandstorm:libera.chat)

Also: I'm open for hire! You can see some of my skills in putting things together in this blog post. I'd love to work in something FOSS or OSM related, but not a requirement. I mostly do Python and Golang, with a bit of Haskell under my belt. Other projects and resume here: https://github.com/orblivion/me

I really appreciate you sharing your concerns, and for all the hope and energy you've put into Matrix to date. Very much to your point, we're not yet in a state where I recommend Matrix to friends and family. Right now I only use it with people in FOSS and other circles where folks are a little more patient with the tech.

Only time will tell, and of course I'm biased as the Matrix.org Foundation's Managing Director, but I think there's good reason to remain hopeful:

The spec continues to evolve with major improvements expected in feature set and performance in the next year as we get to the 2.0 spec release, the Foundation is staffing up and beginning to fundraise, we're on the cusp of holding our first ever community elections to seat a Governing Board, and adoption has continued doubling on an annual basis.

I invite you and anyone else who is invested and/or concerned to join us in the Foundation's new office room – it's a way to get a view into ongoing activities, ask questions, provide direct feedback, and celebrate all the little wins on our way to collective success: https://matrix.to/#/#foundation-office:matrix.org

Cool! Just in case you haven't come across this, we've got a (rather quiet lately) chat that might be useful.

https://matrix.to/#/#usb-rs:matrix.org