thirdroom VS matrix-doc

Not sure if Mozilla Hubs federates, but as already said, ThirdRoom is Matrix VRchat thing.

you can calculate 2D CSS transforms which match the equivalent transforms of your WebGL scene in WebXR - as an efficient but hacky way to (for instance) do live video overlays in 3D without having to mess around importing the video texture into WebGL (assuming you don’t need occlusion or environmental effects etc).

we’re toying with this as an approach for video overlays in https://thirdroom.io, especially for underpowered devices.

by “matrix chat 3d like things” do you mean https://thirdroom.io?

It would be super easy to build something like this on Third Room - and then get e2ee and decentralisation etc for free :)

oh, wow. we have 3D Tile support in https://thirdroom.io but had only ever found NASA’s Mars dataset as a good set of tiles to point it at. This could effectively turn Third Room into a FOSS, decentralised, E2EE multiplayer Google Earth running over Matrix!

AT proto has some significant similarities to Matrix:

* Both are work by self-authenticating git-style replication of Merkle trees/DAGs

* Both define strict data schemas for extensible sets of events (Matrix uses JSON schema - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec/tree/main/data/eve... and OpenAPI; AT uses Lexicons)

* Both use HTTPS for client-server and server-server traffic by default.

* Both are focused on decentralised composable reputation - e.g. https://matrix.org/blog/2020/10/19/combating-abuse-in-matrix... on the Matrix side, or https://paulfrazee.medium.com/the-anti-parler-principles-for... on the bluesky side, etc.

* Both are designed as big-world communication networks. You don't have the server balkanisation that affects ActivityPub.

* Both eschew cryptocurrency systems and incentives.

There are some significant differences too:

* Matrix aspires to be the secure communication layer for the open web.

* AT aspires (i think) to be an open decentralised social networking protocol for the internet.

* AT has portable identity by default. We've been working on this on Matrix (e.g. MSC1228 - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/pull/122... and MSC2787 - https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-spec-proposals/blob/nei...) and have a new MSC (and implementation on Dendrite) in progress right now which combines the best bits of MSC1228 & MSC2787 into something concrete, at last. In fact the proto-MSC is due to emerge today.

* AT is proposing a asymmetrical federation architecture where user data is stored on Personal Data Servers (PDS), but indexing/fan-out/etc is done by Big Graph Servers (BGS). Matrix is symmetrical and by default federates full-mesh between all servers participating in a conversation, which on one hand is arguably better from a self-sovereignty and resilience perspective - but empirically has created headaches where an underpowered server joins some massive public chatroom and then melts. Matrix has improved this by steady optimisation of both protocol and implementation (i.e. adding lazy loading everywhere - e.g. https://matrix-org.github.io/synapse/latest/development/syna...), but formalising an asymmetrical architecture is an interesting different approach :)

* AT is (today) focused on for public conversations (e.g. prioritising big-world search and indexing etc), whereas Matrix focuses both on private and public communication - whether that's public chatrooms with 100K users over 10K servers, or private encrypted group conversations. For instance, one of Matrix's big novelties is decentralised access control without finality (https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/16/matrix-decomposition-an-i...) in order to enforce access control for private conversations.

* Matrix also provides end-to-end encryption for private conversations by default, today via Double Ratchet (Olm/Megolm) and in the nearish future MLS (https://arewemlsyet.com). We're also starting to work on post quantum crypto.

* Matrix is obviously ~7 years older, and has many more use cases fleshed out - whether that's native VoIP/Video a la Element Call (https://element.io/blog/introducing-native-matrix-voip-with-...) or virtual worlds like Third Room (https://thirdroom.io) or shared whiteboarding (https://github.com/toger5/TheBoard) etc.

* AT's lexicon approach looks to be a more modular to extend the protocol than Matrix's extensible event schemas - in that AT lexicons include both RPC definitions as well as the schemas for the underlying datatypes, whereas in Matrix the OpenAPI evolves separately to the message schemas.

* AT uses IPLD; Matrix uses Canonical JSON (for now)

* Matrix is perhaps more sophisticated on auth, in that we're switching to OpenID Connect for all authentication (and so get things like passkeys and MFA for free): https://areweoidcyet.com

* Matrix has an open governance model with >50% of spec proposals coming from the wider community these days: https://spec.matrix.org/proposals

* AT has done a much better job of getting mainstream uptake so far, perhaps thanks to building a flagship app from day one (before even finishing or opening up the protocol) - whereas Element coming relatively late to the picture has meant that Element development has been constantly slowed by dealing with existing protocol considerations (and even then we've had constant complaints about Element being too influential in driving Matrix development).

* AT backs up all your personal data on your client (space allowing), to aid portability, whereas Matrix is typically thin-client.

* Architecturally, Matrix is increasingly experimenting with a hybrid P2P model (https://arewep2pyet.com) as our long-term solution - which effectively would end up with all your data being synced to your client. I'd assume bluesky is consciously avoiding P2P having been overextended on previous adventures with DAT/hypercore: https://github.com/beakerbrowser/beaker/blob/master/archive-.... Whereas we're playing the long game to slowly converge on P2P, even if that means building our own overlay networks etc: https://github.com/matrix-org/pinecone

I'm sure there are a bunch of other differences, but these are the ones which pop to the top of my head, plus I'm far from an expert in AT protocol.

It's worth noting that in the early days of bluesky, the Matrix team built out Cerulean (https://matrix.org/blog/2020/12/18/introducing-cerulean) as a demonstration to the bluesky team of how you could build big-world microblogging on top of Matrix, and that Matrix is not just for chat. We demoed it to Jack and Parag, but they opted to fund something entirely new in the form of AT proto. I'm guessing that the factors that went into this were: a) wanting to be able to optimise the architecture purely for social networking (although it's ironic that ATproto has ended up pretty generic too, similar to Matrix), b) wanting to be able to control the strategy and not have to follow Matrix's open governance model, c) wanting to create something new :)

From the Matrix side; we keep in touch with the bluesky team and wish them the best, and it's super depressing to see folks from ActivityPub and Nostr throwing their toys in this manner. It reminds me of the unpleasant behaviour we see from certain XMPP folks who resent the existence of Matrix (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35874291). The reality is that the 'enemy' here, if anyone, are the centralised communication/social platforms - not other decentralisation projects. And even the centralised platforms have the option of seeing the light and becoming decentralised one day if we play our parts well.

What would be really cool, from my perspective, would be if Matrix ended up being able to help out with the private communication use cases for AT proto - as we obviously have a tonne of prior art now for efficient & audited E2EE private comms and decentralised access control. Moreover, I /think/ the lexicon approach in AT proto could let Matrix itself be expressed as an AT proto lexicon - providing interop with existing Matrix rooms (at least semantically), and supporting existing Matrix clients/SDKs, while using AT proto's ID model and storing data in PDSes etc. Coincidentally, this matches work we've been doing on the Matrix side as part of the MIMI IETF working group to figure out how to layer Matrix on top of other existing protocols: e.g. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ralston-mimi-matrix-t... and https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ralston-mimi-matrix-m... - and if I had infinite time right now I'd certainly be trying to map Matrix's CS & SS APIs onto an AT proto lexicon to see what it looks like.

TL;DR: I think AT proto is cool, and I wish that open projects saw each other as fellow travellers rather than competitors.

You could take a look to this project: https://github.com/matrix-org/thirdroom As part of the project they are implementing a web Game engine, uses ThreeJS for graphics, and includes multiplayer using the Matrix protocol. Could be a good starting point.

Have you looked into what thirdroom or ambient have done in the space?

Have you lot made any friends over at Third Room yet? ;)

If you wanted to be serious about it, you could try to make something based on https://thirdroom.io

Group voice and video calls are not E2EE, and use Jitsi, but this is expected to change with Native Group VoIP Signalling.

DMs in Matrix are always E2EE, and MSC3401: Native Group VoIP Signalling means there should be E2EE in group calls.

From my perspective, the really exciting thing about this that it works equally well in mobile web browsers as well as desktop web - clicking on a link on Mobile Safari should Do The Right Thing without having to install anything.

Moreover, because it's built on Matrix, MSC3401 (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/group-...) means that we'll finally have decentralised cascading video/voice conferences once the SFU (selective forwarding unit) component is added into the mix. So, for instance, users on the same homeserver will get their video feeds relayed locally with minimal latency... and then users on another remote homeserver will also get mixed locally with minimal latency, trunking the two together. If the link dies or one homeserver dies, the conference will keep going - i.e. precisely the same semantics as normal Matrix.

What metadata does Matrix protect? Encrypted state events still aren't a thing for example https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/3414 This means that server admins know what groups a given account is a member of, private or not, and they also have a general idea of what the topic of said groups are, even if they're encrypted. This would be a problem for groups about sensitive personal medical issues, like a private HIV survivors or Alcoholics Anonymous group.

The protocol itself is flexible and can be changed through spec change proposals on their Github. They're currently working on implementing threads, and they recently implemented spaces, which functionally combine the concept of Discord servers and server folders. They can also be nested.

At the moment this only works with Jitsi. It will be implementet soon with MSC3401

Something we're trying to do about this on the Matrix side is MSC2716 (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/msc271...) - the ability to import archives of existing content into Matrix, and thus 'lock it open' and decentralise it for posterity: as long as one of the servers participating in that room stays alive (and the room is set up with infinite data retention, obviously) then the conversation will live on forever. (That MSC is also well worth a look for those interested in how Matrix works under the hood; MSC2716 was a surprisingly tricky problem to solve but it's basically finished now!).

Our first step will be to import all of Gitter's archives into Matrix - but we're then planning to add MSC2716 to all the existing Matrix bridges so that folks can use it to liberate chat history from Discord and Slack if desired, and avoid it getting paywalled/siloed/lost/held-hostage forever. We're also expecting to do USENET, mailing lists, forums, public IRC channels which have explicitly opted into logging... and generally archive as much possible in an open decentralised fashion, and ensure that gatekeepers can't lock up and blackhole info going forwards. After all, information longs to be free :)

by 'broken links' i guess you mean https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/3628? it's a bug on the new spec website; we're working on it.