matrix-doc VS LibreSignal

Group voice and video calls are not E2EE, and use Jitsi, but this is expected to change with Native Group VoIP Signalling.

DMs in Matrix are always E2EE, and MSC3401: Native Group VoIP Signalling means there should be E2EE in group calls.

From my perspective, the really exciting thing about this that it works equally well in mobile web browsers as well as desktop web - clicking on a link on Mobile Safari should Do The Right Thing without having to install anything.

Moreover, because it's built on Matrix, MSC3401 (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/group-...) means that we'll finally have decentralised cascading video/voice conferences once the SFU (selective forwarding unit) component is added into the mix. So, for instance, users on the same homeserver will get their video feeds relayed locally with minimal latency... and then users on another remote homeserver will also get mixed locally with minimal latency, trunking the two together. If the link dies or one homeserver dies, the conference will keep going - i.e. precisely the same semantics as normal Matrix.

What metadata does Matrix protect? Encrypted state events still aren't a thing for example https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/3414 This means that server admins know what groups a given account is a member of, private or not, and they also have a general idea of what the topic of said groups are, even if they're encrypted. This would be a problem for groups about sensitive personal medical issues, like a private HIV survivors or Alcoholics Anonymous group.

The protocol itself is flexible and can be changed through spec change proposals on their Github. They're currently working on implementing threads, and they recently implemented spaces, which functionally combine the concept of Discord servers and server folders. They can also be nested.

At the moment this only works with Jitsi. It will be implementet soon with MSC3401

Something we're trying to do about this on the Matrix side is MSC2716 (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/matthew/msc271...) - the ability to import archives of existing content into Matrix, and thus 'lock it open' and decentralise it for posterity: as long as one of the servers participating in that room stays alive (and the room is set up with infinite data retention, obviously) then the conversation will live on forever. (That MSC is also well worth a look for those interested in how Matrix works under the hood; MSC2716 was a surprisingly tricky problem to solve but it's basically finished now!).

Our first step will be to import all of Gitter's archives into Matrix - but we're then planning to add MSC2716 to all the existing Matrix bridges so that folks can use it to liberate chat history from Discord and Slack if desired, and avoid it getting paywalled/siloed/lost/held-hostage forever. We're also expecting to do USENET, mailing lists, forums, public IRC channels which have explicitly opted into logging... and generally archive as much possible in an open decentralised fashion, and ensure that gatekeepers can't lock up and blackhole info going forwards. After all, information longs to be free :)

by 'broken links' i guess you mean https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/3628? it's a bug on the new spec website; we're working on it.

>what does this mean?

Moxie (Signal's founder) has thrown fits in the past over the existence of third-party clients using their servers: https://github.com/libresignal/libresignal/issues/37#issueco...

0: https://github.com/libresignal/libresignal/issues/37

I push back when anyone recommends Signal because they are fundamentally not an open network.

OWS has historically been hostile to third party implementations outside of their clients. There are multiple unofficial options but the only one I've been looking at is the bridge with matrix, though setting up a matrix server just for this is likely overkill.

I have to say that I find him fascinating too, but there are a few things that raise my suspicion, but of course do not convict him of anything:

The way he is attacking this alternative Signal client and rules out interoperability:

https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco...

Signal was a word before he decided to turn it into a brand.

The signal server source code repo was not updated for a year. Communication intransparent.

https://www.androidpolice.com/2021/04/06/it-looks-like-signa...

I am not even against crypto integration, but I found the choice of MobileCoin odd. Instead of integrating an existing privacy coin or working with the community, he decided to integrate MOB and to be one of their "advisors":

https://techcrunch.com/2018/04/24/mobilecoin-moxie-marlinspi...

https://www.coingecko.com/en/coins/mobilecoin

Is that so surprising? Signal had always a hostile attitude to alternative clients. They have this weird disconnect of the new CEO saying they want to be available to as many people as possible and be a fully commited FOSS app, and then have no version on F-Droid (while Telegram has!) and actively fight alternative clients (see https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco...)

Because of this hostility Signal is not a trustworthy organization at all.

LibreSignal existed before Moxie was like “no, don’t”: https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal

They have shut down third party clients, and resve the roght to continue that.

https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco...

1) You need to audit that code, which.. everyone will have to do.

2) https://signal.org/blog/reproducible-android/

> the Signal Android codebase includes some native shared libraries that we employ for voice calls (WebRTC, etc). At the time this native code was added, there was no Gradle NDK support yet, so the shared libraries aren’t compiled with the project build.

a good answer in my opinion, but it means what you run from the play store is not reproducible and thus can never really be confirmed to be what the sources actually include. There are also binary blobs needed for interacting with Google Play.

3) Signal is openly hostile to third party client implementations: https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37

Moxie Marlinspike on May 5th 2016:

> I'm not OK with LibreSignal using our servers, and I'm not OK with LibreSignal using the name "Signal." You're free to use our source code for whatever you would like under the terms of the license, but you're not entitled to use our name or the service that we run.

> If you think running servers is difficult and expensive (you're right), ask yourself why you feel entitled for us to run them for your product.

Moxie Marlinspike left Signal this January[2] 2022.

Whose to say whether there will be any change, but it's been interesting seeing Signal as a somewhat defended property. Although various third party clients/tools/libraries do exist already.

The claim that running servers is expensive would have been more interesting, imo, had there been any viable way to run your own. But for a long while Signal server source code wasn't being updated at all.

[1] https://github.com/LibreSignal/LibreSignal/issues/37#issueco...

[2] https://signal.org/blog/new-year-new-ceo/