mach VS llvm-mingw

Myself and many others are betting on Zig in major ways, I truly think it has a bright future ahead.

In spare time, myself and a few others are working on a game engine in Zig[0], and the Zig core team has been very receptive to addressing issues our project faces and supporting us.

Others are working on pixel art editors[1], open source 2D RPG games[2], there's a group of independent folks working on a 3D massive immersive sim game[3], a group working on making Zig an amazing language for micro-controllers[4], etc.

Please consider donating $5-10 a month to the ZSF! They are a great group of people, and it has so many knock-on effects for others in the FOSS community. :)

[0] https://machengine.org/

[1] https://github.com/foxnne/pixi

[2] https://github.com/foxnne/aftersun

[3] https://github.com/Srekel/tides-of-revival

[4] https://github.com/ZigEmbeddedGroup

I don't know if there's anything better than a zip. For our website[0] which includes a bunch of docs for our game engine, Zig packages, etc. we just offer a link "offline version of this site" in the footer which is an ~80MB zip file.

I think the challenge with zip files is.. do you want all the images? do you want all versions of the docs, or just a specific version of the docs? It's hard to tailor the zip to the user's desire. But zip still seems to be the best.

[0] https://machengine.org/

Cool to see others working on this problem. I hope more people do.

Funnily I've seen a lot of programmers and math folks who express how truly, genuinely beautiful Beziers and the math behind them are. But I've never met an artist or graphic designer who didn't express some deep frustration at Bezier controls and how hard they are to work with.

There are even games[0] which make a mockery out of how hard Bezier controls are to use, where the game is purely using the controls.

Controls are just one side of the problem, in my view; the other side is that cubics are terrible for GPUs, they don't understand them - and I believe many of the best 2D graphics libraries today are not even fully GPU accelerated, e.g. Skia. There are folks working on compute shader-based approaches, where we try to shoe-horn this CPU-focused algorithm into GPUs and pray - but it still isn't really suitable.

The controls suck for artists, and the math sucks for GPUs. This is only true of cubics, if you restrict yourself to quadratics (although that brings other challenges), both the control issue goes away (you can just click+drag the curve!) and the performance issue goes away (quadratics are triangles, GPUs love them)

That's the summary of the talk[1] I gave at SYCL'22. In that talk, I didn't have time to present the downsides of quadratics (which are real) - so if you watch it please keep that in mind - but my overall point I think is a solid one: the controls suck, and GPUs can't handle them.

The only reason we stick with cubics in its current form is because of SVG, compatibility with existing tooling, etc. But isn't it crazy? We have new bitmap image formats all the time, and so few vector graphics formats.

In Mach engine[2] we're continuing to explore this space, end-to-end, from author tooling -> format -> rendering. I'm not claiming we have a perfect solution, we don't, but we're at least thinking about this problem. Kudos to the authors of this article for thinking about this space as well.

[0] https://bezier.method.ac/

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTybQ-5MlrE

[2] https://machengine.org

A game engine https://machengine.org is being written in zig, there's also https://microzig.tech as zig is well suited to embedded development.

https://github.com/hexops/mach (shameless plug)

Zig fits pretty naturally here too. We've got ~19 WebGPU examples[1] which use Dawn natively (no browser support yet), and we build it using Zig's build system so it 'just works' out of the box with zero fuss as long as you grab a recent Zig version[2]. No messing with cmake/ninja/depot_tools/etc.

WASM support in Zig, Rust, and C++ is also not equal. C++ prefers Emscripten which reimplements parts of popular libraries like SDL, for me personally that feels a bit weird as I don't want my compiler implementing my libraries / changing how they behave. Rust I believe generally avoids emscripten(?), but Zig for sure lets me target WASM natively and compile C/C++ code to it using the LLVM backend and soon the custom Zig compiler backend.

[1] https://github.com/hexops/mach-examples

[2] https://github.com/hexops/mach#supported-zig-version

We're building Mach which aims to be competitive with Unity/Unreal/Godot in spriti, but super modular / let you pick and choose which parts to use or build yourself.

git clone --recursive https://github.com/hexops/mach-examples cd mach-examples/ zig build run-sprite2d

> Doing Python with a C plugin, or just compiling a command line C/C++ isn't really systems programming.

I care about a minimal set of tools in order to compile C/C++ programs. thats offered by:

https://github.com/mstorsjo/llvm-mingw/releases

and also MSYS2, and even the Zig C compiler. all less than 200 MB. meanwhile Visual Studio installing about 10 GB worth. If Microsoft can offer a similar experience then I am interested.

Pick a community-supported Clang-based Mingw-w64 distribution.

> AFAIK there is no native GCC compiler for Windows

might want to check your facts before spouting nonsense. there is, and has been for many, many years. more than one in fact:

https://github.com/mstorsjo/llvm-mingw

https://packages.msys2.org/base/mingw-w64-gcc

MinGW is notoriously slow to link compared to MSVC, unless using llvm-mingw with the link=lld SCons option. If using MSVC, make sure to use 2022 or at least 2019 if possible – recent linkers tend to be faster than older versions.

GCC doesn't support windows/arm64, but you should be able to do it with LLVM. I've never gotten it to work myself, but should be able to supply a cross toolchain: https://github.com/mstorsjo/llvm-mingw

Visual Studio is a bloated mess, and has been for many years. Its at least 10 times larger than other options, such as MinGW-LLVM:

https://github.com/mstorsjo/llvm-mingw

Sadly Qt ships MinGW 8.1 which is positively ancient (released in 2018). If you're starting a new project (which you likely are if you are installing an IDE aha) there's no reason not to go for more recent compilers - msys2 has GCC12 (https://packages.msys2.org/package/mingw-w64-x86_64-gcc) and Clang 14 (https://packages.msys2.org/package/mingw-w64-x86_64-clang) which just work better overall, have much more complete C++20 support, have less bugs, better compile times (especially clang with the various PCH options that appeared in the last few versions), better static analysis, etc.

Personally I use https://github.com/mstorsjo/llvm-mingw's releases directly which does not require MSYS but that's because I recompile all my libraries with specific options - if the MSYS libs as they are built are good for you there's no reason not to use them.

you can grab it here: https://github.com/mstorsjo/llvm-mingw/releases/tag/20211002

Clang (and lld) do support native TLS, and mingw-w64 does have the things that are needed. I think binutils also might have what's needed too, but AFAIK the thing that's missing is support for it in GCC.

Actually, (upstream) Clang defaults to native TLS instead of emulated TLS. In MSYS2, Clang is overridden to use emulated TLS by deafult to interoperate better with GCC built code and libstdc++ though.

The toolchain I maintain, https://github.com/mstorsjo/llvm-mingw, defaults to native TLS throughout.